A few weeks ago, Truthout published an article that examined a number of instances of water torture, including evidence of near-drowning, on prisoners held by the Department of Defense. A second article, with further documentation, including other cases of submersion in water and also extreme forms of “water dousing,” will be coming out soon. But not everything can be squeezed into even two articles.
One of the more egregious examples of water torture that I found in my investigations wasn’t conducted by DoD, but was used by Egyptian interrogators contracted to torture U.S. rendition victim Mamdouh Habib. Habib was an Egyptian born Australian Muslim who was renditioned from Afghanistan to Egypt in late 2001 or early 2002. He has written a book about his experiences, My Story: The Tale of a Terrorist Who Wasn’t. Earlier this year, Habib filed suit in Egypt against former intelligence chief, Omar Suleiman, a long-time ally of the United States.
According to a 2005 article in The Age, Habib declared in an affadavit that in Egypt he had been placed in a room by Egyptian authorities. The torturers would “gradually fill it with water, leaving only his head exposed and forced him to stand on tiptoe for hours.”
In his memoir, My Story, Habib further described his experience in the water-filled room. “Every time I began to drown,” Habib wrote, “they hauled me out, revived me, and put me back in…. I got to the stage where I didn’t care anymore; I’d relax and close my eyes and start to drown, hoping I would die. I don’t know how many days this went on for.”
Habib also reports that one room he was put in had “electrified water.”
While researching the subject of water torture in general, I discovered that in Habib’s Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT) hearing at Guantanamo (PDF), the tribunal specifically used statements drawn from Habib during torture, including the water torture described above, to identify him as an “enemy combatant.”
Judge Green described the case of Mamdouh Habib, who alleged that he had been sent by the United States to Egypt for interrogation where he was subjected to severe beatings, locked in handcuffs in a room that gradually filled with water to a level just below his chin as he stood for hours on the tips of his toes, and that he was suspended from a wall with his feet resting on an electrified cylindrical drum. Mr. Habib alleged that, while undergoing this treatment, he admitted to doing many things he had never done…. Without resolving the accuracy of Mr. Habib’s allegations, the CSRT relied on the statements that he made while in Egypt and concluded that he was an enemy combatant.
Now this might not be news to many people, as the issue of using tortured evidence at both the CSRTs and the Military Commissions, including waterboarding or other water-type tortures, has long been an issue among human rights activists and critics of U.S. detention and torture policies. But one can become inured to such things, unaccustomed to reading about what kind of torture produced the evidence.
The CSRT panels, which consist of three military officers, were instituted after the Supreme Court rulings in Hamdi and Rasul in June 2004. According to a CSRT “fact sheet,” the hearings were supposed to provide an “opportunity for detainees to contest their designation as enemy combatants, and thereby the basis for their detention.”
The CSRTs were amply criticized by human rights groups. Human Rights First summarized some of their main problems:
The CSRTs fail to meet fair hearing standards in several ways:
– There is no meaningful way for a detainee to challenge a CSRT’s determination as he has little or no access to witnesses or classified information on which the determination to detain is based.
– The CSRT can rely on information obtained through unlawful methods, including information coerced from detainees who were subjected to torture or cruel, inhuman degrading treatment. Because CSRTs can also rely on secret evidence, the fact that evidence is obtained illegally, including through torture, might never be known.
– The CSRTs lack an effective remedy as they are not mandated to release a detainee who is not designated as an enemy combatant.
They also deny the detainee the right to counsel, the right to call witnesses, and the right to present evidence. The detainee has no right to an impartial hearing.
In 2008, in a landmark ruling, Boumediene v. Bush , Guantanamo prisoners were supposedly granted actual habeas rights in U.S. courts, which were believed at the time to redress the problems with the CSRTs. But, as Andy Worthington noted in an article last month, the ruling has been effectively gutted.
The courts’ failure has come about largely because a number of judges in the D.C. Circuit Court, where appeals against the habeas rulings are filed, have revealed themselves to be at least as right-wing as the architects of the “war on terror” in the Bush administration. Led by Judge A. Raymond Randolph, whose previous claim to fame on national-security issues was that he supported every piece of Guantánamo-related legislation that was subsequently overturned by the Supreme Court, the Circuit Court has, in the last year, succeeded in gutting habeas corpus of all meaning, when its relief is sought by any of the 171 men still held at Guantánamo….
… judges have whittled away at the lower courts’ demands that the government establish its case “by a preponderance of the evidence,” which is a very low standard in the first place; and secondly, because the Circuit Court has reinforced the misconception at the heart of the “war on terror,” almost delighting, it seems, in failing to acknowledge that soldiers are different from terrorists.
In fact, despite the Supreme Court’s attempt to recognize rights of the prisoners, both soldiers and terrorists are still, essentially, held at Guantánamo as a category of human being with almost no rights at all — what George W. Bush notoriously referred to as “unlawful enemy combatants.”
While some detainees have won habeas cases due to evidence thrown out because of torture, as in the case of Uthman Abdul Rahim Mohammed Uthman last year, others, like Tawfiq al-Bihani, have not been so lucky. — For more on the death of habeas in the D.C. Circuit, see this posting by bmaz over at emptywheel.net.
Meanwhile, the CSRT rules and procedures remain in place under Obama. DoD’s official tribunal procedures can be accessed here (PDF).
The last major change occurred in December 2005, when as part of the Detainee Treatment Act the law stated ” a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or Administrative Review Board, or any similar or successor administrative Tribunal or board, in making a determination of status or disposition of any detainee under such procedures, shall, to the extent practicable, assess– (A) whether any statement derived from or relating to such detainee was obtained as a result of coercion; and (B) the probative value (if any) of any such statement.”
But, as was pointed out in a Seton Hall study, “No-Hearing Hearings” (PDF), these changes came after the CSRT hearings were mostly complete. The study added, “While there is no way to ascertain the extent, if any, that witness statements might have been affected by coercion, fully 18% of the detainees alleged torture; in each case, the detainee volunteered the information rather than being asked by the Tribunal or the personal representative. In each case, the panel proceeded to decide the case before any investigation was undertaken.”
But the issue is all forgotten today, just like the torture endured by Habib, and the thousands tortured by the U.S. military and intelligence agencies, and their allied forces. Good for a historical look, and that’s all.




85 Comments

John Donne, Easter Sermon; Spring 1672
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/JohnDonne&CISOPTR=3215&REC=5
h/t Harpie
On a related side note, yesterday, Human Rights Watch issued a press release entitled “Australia: Don’t Seize David Hicks’ Assets.”
Criminy. They used to make movies like that in my youth (60 years ago). Think it might have been the Romans torturing the Xtians. They also had rooms with movable walls that would come together & crush the torturee.
Pretty primitive & awful stuff.
Thanks, Jeff. I will never forgive our government for taking us to the ultimate low. Lets me know exactly what my life, and that of all of We The People, means to them.
Insanity!
How long will it take before American citizens have no habeas on our own soil?
The Patriot Act must be purged!
The image in my mind of Habib being in a room that was filling with water is incredibly disturbing. It is like something out of a movie except in this movie our hero doesn’t swim to the floor and find a hole to swim out through. Our hero is trapped, being worn down and tortured by individuals who are carrying out a barbaric act that will get Habib to make a false confession, which can then be used to charge him with being an “enemy combatant.”
Basically, this is all an insidious way to “juke the stats.” The “war on terror” probably looks like something being won if any and every human picked up as a terror suspect is transformed through torture from someone who is hard to link to an act of “terrorism” to someone who “admits” [falsely confesses] to committing “terrorism.”
I’ve said this before, will say it again;
I wonder if we ask people who advocate for the use of torture, people like cheney;
“how long do you think it will take for you to admit you were responsible for the attack on september 11th if we subjected you to these programs, and once you admitted your guilt, do you think that would make you guilty and should we hold you as an enemy combatant?”
would love to see them try and dance around that question
The bold is mine:
(excerpt from “The Quiet Death of Habeas Corpus,” by bmaz, June 11, 2011)
the patriot act is plageurized from hitlers “the enabling act”, the similarities are profound
Hey, you wouldn’t even have to put Cheney into the water. He would go ahead and admit it. IMO, he wouldn’t be lying either! Oh, he is SO much an enemy combatant! He weaseled and pressured the intelligence agencies to go along with his plans.
Can we hold him now?
WORD!
The Ultimate WORD!
Agreed! I’ve read that piece of garbage legislation. It is nothing more than a faked up cover sheet for removing the Bill of Rights and the largest part of the Constitution.
If you’ve ever wondered what the “Enemy Within” means, that is it!
cheney is a yellow bellied depraved sociopath and he would admit his guilt before he was even interegated when faced with the torture he established
I consider obama equally guilty and would support impeachment for war crimes btw
Hear-Hear!
My vote is AYE, Sir.
Detainee law is just another iteration of the “New Jim Crow” in America. Just think about torture in Chicago under Jon Burge.
Yep. Rig the sails, punch the shute, cut the line, stab the wheel, and on.
Slow way to everything!
Kevin,
Have you read the Act? I’m telling you that piece of garbage is nothing more than a criminal writing up his own defense!
How many of our fellow citizens, Kevin, hold views similar to those of MarkH who argues that the proof of our abiding humanity is that we are not killing everyone?
By the lights of far too many Americans, apparently, any who are “suspected” are guilty … even the President bandies such notions about. “Trial?” … “innocent until proven guilty?” such quaint notions as those are but silly, cowardly, and most unnecessary “things”, as in “That is NOT a person, merely a thing …”
Thank you, Jeff, for insisting that some “things” DO matter, that some principles are inviolate despites claims of “exigent expediency”.
It is more than merely “too bad” that far too many in the judiciary, who certainly SHOULD KNOW better are willing to “game” what should NEVER be trifled with … when the price of “winning” involves the loss of both reason and humanity.
What was it that Martin Luther King said? “In the end, it is not the words of our enemies which we remember, but the silence of our friends.”
I thank everyone here for not remaining silent.
DW
Twooph!
All of us here at FDL are still fuming that Obama could pronounce B. Manning guilty before a hearing or trial. Maybe he feels it is okay to do so, but let’s see how he feels about being judged without due process!
What it is and how it is done, so far as I can tell:
1. The “logical” assumption of those who capture and detain the people who end up in Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, rendition sites, etc. is that they are all guilty. If they weren’t guilty they wouldn’t have been captured, and they wouldn’t have been captured if they weren’t guilty. I have heard several US military officers responsible for capture and detention articulate this assumption quite well.
2. Habeas corpus is thrown out the window. This is the essential act of all tyrannical authority. The point is to destroy the objectivity and equitability of the law, in effect to render it useless even for those with the power to manipulate it. To fill this vacuum, executive power steps in to say, “I am the law and at the same time above it.” The latter aspect of this fuehrerprinzip explains why the war criminals of both the Bush and Obama administrations have not been brought to justice. Lack of habeas corpus means no recourse or reason for the vast majority of the population while a cabal of inflexible authority figures attempt to play god.
3. “. . . held at Guantánamo as a category of human being with almost no rights at all . . .” The sole point of stripping rights from people is to render them non-people. In a political system, one’s existence, one’s identity is dependent upon meaningful, recognized, collective rights (e.g. the right to vote, the right to trial, the right to political representation, etc.). By taking away the rights of the detainees, for all political intents and purposes these people cease to be. By stripping away the rights and therefore the existence of these detainees, they have been eradicated right from the start. Compare this to the assumptions in #1 above and we see that this is the “legal” equivalent of summary execution on the battlefield. I suspect the reason why those engaged in this summary execution have so little patience for those fighting for justice for the detainees is because from their perspective they understand that the detainees are already dead.
4. Turning human beings into non-entities is often done with language. This is why epithets accompany war. They allow combatants to rename their opponents in a way that dehumanizes them, which is a necessary precondition for putting a bullet in them. Parts of the US “legal” system have done this by changing Prisoner of War into Unlawful Enemy Combatants. This is part of an ongoing semantic assault whereby those with power to shape public opinion invent terms and change definitions, thereby changing reality even to the point of destroying not only people but public resistance as well. Employing an extreme, exploitive version of postmodernism, they use it as a weapon to destroy people, shut down debate, and—as their definitions are authoritarian—wreck democracy. It is appropriate for people trying to play god that they should employ such magical thinking: Just say the Word and thine enemies shall perish.
Superb comment, otto.
It delinates both the history and the “psychology” of tyranny.
We have met the tyranny … and it is “us”.
DW
As I have said before, we are creating a nation of barbarians and those young people doing these awful things are now coming home and can’t live with what they have seen and done. Who will help them? Who will hold them when they cry – if they are even able to cry? Who the hell are we?
Is it actually legal to use evidence obtained through waterboarding in either CSRTs or Military commission?
Were there an operant Rule of Law, DavidH, the answer to your question would be obvious.
Frankly, it is obvious, and however it is “spun”, that truth cannot be denied.
Long live the rule of law!
(For without it, reason, sanity, and humanity … shall perish from the earth …)
DW
That time has already come. The first job of all governments is domestic control.
There is a rule of law on the matter, it either is legal or it isn’t. That was my question, is it or isn’t it? You cannot address the practice if it is now legal in exactly the same way you can if it’s not legal. There would have to be two different strategies, one to change an existing law and one to stop an illegal practice.
Silence is complicity.
“The “war on terror” probably looks like something being won if any and every human picked up as a terror suspect is transformed through torture from someone who is hard to link to an act of “terrorism” to someone who “admits” [falsely confesses] to committing “terrorism.””
The main function of this torture and the kangaroo courts that display it publicly is ritualistic. The plot, archetypes and moral lessons are foregone conclusions in this public theater.
It reminds me of the ball games played by pre-Columbian Mesoamerican civilizations. When an enemy was defeated in battle, some of the survivors were forced to play a ball game against the victors. The losing team was sacrificially executed. Of course, the defeated players, apart from being demoralized by their loss on the battlefield, were tortured before the game. There was no question about who would win the ball game. It was a public, ritualistic display of power, superiority and victory.
Kevin, have you read Michelle Alexander’s “The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness”? http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030
Excerpt: http://www.theroot.com/views/new-jim-crow
If you happen to be near Kansas State University sometime around the beginning of next year, you can come see her talk. I have secured the funds for her speaking fee and we are working on a date right now. You can check the website for her speaking engagement dates. http://www.newjimcrow.com/
No! It is not legal!
Congress gave the laws a temporary gas attack with the Patriot Act, then they just re-upped it. They are currently hiding behind an illegal document that is not based on anything real aside from what a few NeoCons wanted in order to rape and pillage foreign countries for fun and profit!
ok, do you have anything to back that up? You cannot fix a problem until you can identify it. If it’s not legal show where the law says that testimony obtained through waterboarding is inadmissible in military commissions.
btw, I tend to agree with you that it’s probably not legal, but you have to show specifically what it is that must be fought.
Um, David, the answer is……… yes.
From the law I quoted in the story: the CSRT members assess “whether any statement derived from or relating to such detainee was obtained as a result of coercion; and (B) the probative value (if any) of any such statement.”
In other words, the CSRT decides if tortured testimony is allowed. Hence, it is allowed.
I didn’t make clear in the story that we are speaking not just of the tortured testimony of the accused, but the tortured testimony as well of any “witness” — a witness, btw, that the accused may not even the identity of, and is not allowed to cross-examine. The CSRT is a fake court, a kangaroo court, etc.
At Bagram they have a similar procedure. According to Andrea Prasow in an article at The Jurist, the Detainee Review Boards there are modeled after the Gitmo CSRTs.
And as at Gitmo, some prisoners are “cleared,” but not released.
When criminals make the law, the law becomes criminal.
David, you have heard of John Yoo, Jay Bybee, David Addington, Stephen Bradbury, Dan Levin, etc., haven’t you?
After all, the deportations of Jews, Gypsies, Communists, “Slavs”, etc. to concentration camps was all done “legally.” Jim Crow, as others have mentioned, was the “law.” So, once upon a time, was slavery. Must we bring all that barbarity back now? The reintroduction of torture into U.S. judicial processes, through the back door of military commissions and boards, will destroy totally American democracy, if it hasn’t already.
The rule of law was “tossed” out, beginning with the SCOTUS decision in Bush v. Gore, David, under an actual rule of law, CSRTs and “Military Commissions” would NOT have been and are NOT legitimate on the face of it.
That “tainted” evidence is “accepted” and rarely or never described as such, before such “tribunals”, and “evidence” elicited through toture is about as tainted as it is possible to get, suggests that “legality” is an elastic concept, in the US today, such “evidence”is NOT leagl under international law or domestic law, as it once was.
Since the rise of the “unitary” executive and the “efforts” of such legal “scholars” as John Yoo and David Addington, the “slippery slope has been “greased” to embarce any number of “powers” of dubious legality.
I would suggest that you visit Emptywheel’s site and the ruminations such as those of bmaz, as Jeff Kaye links to in the body of his post, to learn more about your concerns.
This is not by any means a new question, as those here concerned with the rule of law and civil society will readily attest.
No, it is NOT legal, although those who are bending and breaking the law to protect themselves would dearly like us all to believe otherwise.
DW
Then your response is that yes, it’s legal. THAT’S what needs to be addressed then. There’s little need to go off on tangets about slavery (although at one point slavery was legal and THAT was what needed to be addressed THEN), I simply asked if the practice was legal. That’s the first question we must ask.
If it’s legal, there’s one fight to have. If it was illegal, then it’s a different fight.
according to Jeff, it is
How would or do you propose to “fight” this criminal “legality”, David.
It is deep into the territory which slavery once occupied, very much so.
Do you imagine anything less than “confrontation” of a similar degree will dislodge or dismantle this new “peculiar institution of torture”?
Can this society find reason and sanity sufficient to stand against the powers that be, short of all out revolution and the imposotion of “consequence” for those who have committed nothing less than treason?
Yes, another “t” word is the only name which will suffice for what has been done and what is clearly intended to be done.
On whose side do you imagine the “good” American to be, today, that of truth and justice, or the that of tyrannical and unlimited power?
If we cannot stop ourselves, the government which does all these wrongful and inhuman things in our names, then who shall do so?
DW
Seems obvious. The law needs to be changed. Is this really news?
See my questions to you @38.
“Legality” is in the eyes of those who have the power to destroy any who question, resist, or challenge.
Such “legality” as we confront is also “criminal” as Jeff has also clearly said.
Does POWER or does REASON decide, today, in the United States of America, what is “legal”?
Beyond “legal” there remains the question of “legitimacy”. How and by whom is THAT determined?
These are questions of moment and consequence … for each and every one of us.
DW
Yes. But how?
And, more importantly, by whom?
DW
You seem to want to get on a soapbox. Personally, I’d prefer to fix the problem.
If you are unaware of how laws are changed in the US, you probably are nowhere near ready for discussion.
What part of the above answers to you do you not understand? What part of telling you that in the real America it is not legal, but in the Bush/NeoCon/Patriot Act America it IS; do you not understand?
Here is a clearer breakdown:
Before November, 2000 it was illegal to do this.
After the election/Supreme Court appointment of President Bush in November, 2000 it is legal.
David, I am most ready.
You have avoided any answer in depth.
And having done so, have you washed your hands of any actual action on your part?
I ask you again, HOW and by WHOM?
When Congress is complicit, when the judiciary is complicit, when all three “branches” are alinged, HOW and by WHOM is neither a stupid nor uninformed set of questions.
You have answered neither.
DW
Note your last 3 words. Do you see the problem now? If so, would you mind pointing it out to Ole DW?
Tell us please. How are laws changed in the US?
Where do we start and what do we do?
Oh, believe me. I see the problem. I saw the problem in November, 2000.
Tell us, since we don’t know how to go about changing it.
I don’t think you do see the problem. If you do, tell me in 3 words exactly what the problem is. Can you do that?
HOW and by WHOM, David, IS the problem we face.
Do you NOT grasp that?
DW
It is NOW Legal. So, tell us how to change laws. Norske and I have been on this earth over 50 years in these United States.
All of the usual means of making changes through our representatives no longer works. Tell us! How do we change the laws?
yes, we’ve established that after some scuffling around on DW’s part.
How so? And if it is, as you say, “NOW” legal, doesn’t that mean that it wasn’t legal before? So how did that happen without laws being, um, changed?
Excuse me! Not only Norsk, but DW as well.
DW, my apologies.
I’ll up you by fifteen years, PP.
Apparently, we have just been graced by a wisdom so far above us, above our understanding and ken, as to have missed the riddled answer in the throes of our own short-sightedness and silly despairs.
Reminding me of Gary Harr’s response to me, “If you want to impeach, impeach!”
Right, chaps … silly “ole” me.
DW
We are ready for this discussion. You sorta dissed my friend there by insinuating some sort of political illiteracy. So to back up your remarks please tell us the proper way to go about changing laws.
You’re the one who said it was “NOW” legal, not me. So does that mean it wasn’t legal before? Wonder if that would have required a, you know, change in the law.
When’s the last time the representative government of the United States actually managed to tackle a problem that needed to be addressed and didn’t just apply some kind of band-aid measure to get the country by?
If we’re talking about issues of national security, representative government has adopted a bipartisan national consensus on the “new normal.” Measures implemented after 9/11, which accelerate an assault on civil liberties and human rights, are accepted and ignored.
Well, we have been telling you how it happened. It was not something that the population agreed to or voted upon. Now, you tell us how the law can be changed.
Oh granted, our government is totally ineffectual, no matter who’s in charge.
Who has argued for accepting or ignoring anything?
You’ve been telling me that the law changed and how it did so? Then why are you asking me how laws change?
And you suggest that I am uninformed?
What planet have you been occupying these last eleven years?
What “mandate” do you imagine will “work”, will suffice to gain the attention of the best Congress money can buy, David?
Come done off YOUR high-horse, and deign to tell us know-nothings what we may, with your gentle help and compassionate guidance, actually do?
What history may you recite to offer us possibility of achieving the needful and necessary “change”?
DW
DavidH,
The last time we had a topic that you went on and on but were eventually cut off you had a tanturm. “So much for discussion.”
It is my sincere belief that you are not here to have conversation but to have confrontation. Therefore in the future you may spout away and will be ignored. Don’t waste your time because you surely don’t answer questions directed at you.
So the best you may offer is that we institute our own tyranny?
That we run rough-shod over reason and precedent, start a bogus war, manipulate through fear and retain the services of Bybee, Yoo, and Addington, that we might push through an new “ACT” making use of a compliant Congress and with a complicit and “involved” judiciary, ingrain laws that assault reason and humanity to regain that very same reason and humanity?
Unless you offer something concrete, I must assume that you are wasting our time and acting an idiot for your own simple pleasure.
In which case, your credibility is as nothing at all.
Put up or shut up, David.
It’s as simple as that.
DW
Those in power.
Well, I obviously can only speak for myself and don’t feel obligated to address a point directed at me but meant for others.
Perhaps, I made too simple of a point. The fact is, if it’s legal then you cannot hold people accountable for doing it. Do you agree?
What has to change so that people can be held accountable for their actions is the law.
And while it may indeed be very tough to change the law, it’s quite obvious that it can be done since it already has been done.
David H
The Torture /Murder/ Treason upon us is against the law.
There is a stupid argument out there that there’s a law against robbery but not against spending proceeds from a robbery.
There isn’t a need for the consequences of the lawbreaking to be codified, it already is.
At some point there certainly would be but I agree first step is to change the law.
I agree if my name is John Yoo.
If something is done, then it can be undone. The logic is simple. If I kill someone, why, then, all I have to do is bring them back to life!
Simple logic that does not take into account historical causes and contexts is mistaken at best, or a recourse to ignorance at the service of the existing powers at worst.
I don’t believe you are serious, or you would have extended your dialogue beyond the supposedly simple issue of what is “legal.”
I refer you to the school of Charles Dickens:
Bold emphasis is, dare I say, added.
All y’all sure wasted a lot of good white space on DavidH . . . n gave him a good time and substantiated his salary to provoke.
LeSigh, Pups . . . we’re better n this . . .
I’d rather you spoke for yourself than for John Yoo.
Yes the logic that if a law has been changed then clearly it can be changed is quite simple. Stunning how many folks it escapes though.
If you don’t address the legal issue first, you won’t get anywhere. Hopefully that is not your goal. Anytime someone brings Charles Dickens into an argument, I do unfortunately have to wonder about that. Seriousness trumps tangents in my view.
David,
Do you have anything you want to share with the class? Anything we all should know before we continue to engage you in further conversation?
If quoting literature to make arguments is not appropriate to you, I don’t see how you can reasonably expect anyone to take you seriously. Are you going to clown around or do you want to debate people?
DavidH appears not to understand some basics. The United States is a signatory to the UN Convention Against Torture, which is a Treaty.
Article VI of the US Constitution states:
The criminal acts of torture, from which these issues flow, convey no legal protection despite what John Yoo or DavidH says, and is the crux of the issue
Not sure what you are up in arms over Kevin. If you don’t believe that assessing and addressing the legalities of permitting such testimony is the first step toward addressing the issue, perhaps you could suggest an alternative first step? That might actually lead to discussion in a way that quoting Dickens will not.
Care to point out where I said any such thing?
Ah, you finally made me feel sorry for you. I could have forgiven you your ignorance of history, your failure to show empathy for the suffering, and your obtuseness, but the inability to understand irony shows you are not someone with whom one can have a conversation.
Oh, let us have our indignation. Sometimes, it’s all we have left.
You cannot come up with any other starting point? Really?
Good point about the treaty. However, some of those in the US who adhere to the Fuehrerprinzip have not only placed detainees outside the law, rendering them non-entities, but also have created physical space that attempts to exist outside of law. This is the meaning of Gitmo: A place where neither US nor international law exists, an extra-legal location outside all sovereign boundaries.
What is the response when the US government says re the CAT, “So, who is going to enforce it? You and what army are going to make us?” Or, how can the law circumscribe the actions of those who have the power to throw out the law?
The response is to elect people who don’t say that. There are people who do not believe that Congress is beyond all laws, including US law. But they must be elected to office.
The response is not to whine and moan that people who do not feel that Congress is subject to the laws are acting upon their beliefs.
“Trifles make the sum of life. ” -Charles Dickens
May the deities of simple wit
make clear the difference between
a “starting point” ….
and an end-point?
Amen.
You do so continually and implicitly if you can’t come out and and just say that these unelected people in the government, Military or DOJ types, are breaking the law.
If you don’t, can’t or won’t understand the legal concept of “fruit of the poisonous tree” well…that’s a position you can continue to hold. But it certainly isn’t fact based.
“A foolish consistency is …”
Yet literary allusions, Kevin, seemingly, are lost upon, just as essential “contact” also appears to be non-functioning among, certain of the aitches.
;~DW
You are confused. I am not the poster who said that it is legal to use testimony obtained through waterboarding. Perhaps you should scroll up and address the actual person who did say that. I don’t plan to address comments others have made with you. Particularly if you haven’t been following the conversation closely enough to even know who said what.
Is it legal?
Is it constitutional?
Is it legal under the Convention against torture signed into law by Reagan?
You cannot reasonably discuss this by claiming that somebody, somewhere, wrote a law that some interpret as permitting an act that, throughout post-war history, has been near universally condemned. Law, even if not just, has to be at least internally consistent. You cannot sentence to hard labor Japanese war criminals that did what US government employees did, and likely still do right now.
Reading a comment thread like this makes clear that arguing here is a waste of time. The UCMJ expects more from military personnel than finding some justification, somewhere, for unethical behavior. It expects officers to defend the constitution – including the letter and spirit of habeas corpus – against enemies foreign and domestic – against tyranny first and foremost.
Neither officers nor voters are excused for the kind of toilet bowl lawyering on display here. No, we do *not* do it for the raisins.