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(photo: everyskyline )An afternoon march culminated in the arrest of at least 700 protesters on Saturday, who came to participate and show solidarity with Occupy Wall Street. It is estimated about three to six thousand people were out protesting. The march came to the Brooklyn Bridge. Those at the front of the march chanted, “Take the bridge!” and a swell of people began to walk across a walk way on the bridge.
Those up on the walkway on the bridge looked down to see people walking on to the Brooklyn Bridge road. NYPD officers were at the front of the march. This was unexpected. The protesters continued on the bridge and chanted, “Whose bridge? Our bridge!” The euphoria being experienced among the protesters was noticeably liberating. It is at this moment that people likely felt they were capable of defeating any injustice if they just stuck together.
A police line then formed across the road. Hundreds were stopped. The protesters continued to show strength and resolve, but as the officer announced people would be arrested for disorderly conduct, it was clear they were all going to be taken away unless they found an escape route.
It looks like police entrapped the protesters on the bridge. The NYPD could have just kept going on the bridge and then led the protesters to a side road on the other side and asked them to disperse. The participants would have made their way back to Zuccotti Park, where the occupation has been taking place in lower Manhattan near Wall Street. But, the police led hundreds to unknowingly commit one of the most powerful acts of civil disobedience in recent American history.
The hundreds who were arrested and taken to jail and who may not be released until Monday may want to consider a class action lawsuit. In 2003, Chicagoans who protested the imminent invasion of Iraq filed a federal lawsuit against the Chicago police for herding “thousands of peaceful demonstrators onto Chicago Avenue between Michigan Avenue and inner Lake Shore Drive then blockaded them there illegally for two to three hours on March 20.” (I’ll expand on this in a future post.)
FDL’s premier live blog on Occupy Wall Street continues. Today will likely be a “day of rest” for the occupiers. The blog will track the immediate aftermath and fallout from the mass arrest. The comments thread will be a space for further discussion of what Occupy Wall Street has created and how the movement can continue to be built in the face of a security state that will defend the interests of the moneyed elite before the people.
Here’s the Twitter list of people to follow.
LIVE STREAM OF OCCUPY WALL STREET VIA GLOBAL REVOLUTION
11:27 PM Scene unfolds involving a drummer that doesn’t want to stop playing and respect a noise curfew. TARU and police come over to drum circle. A drummer is shouting and acting “belligerent.” The drummer says something about money and Iraq. Check @NewYorkist for specifics.
10:48 PM The Guardian wants to hear from anyone arrested on Brooklyn Bridge:
Were you part of the Brooklyn Bridge protests? Do you have more video or pictures, or links to material already published? We would like to build a more comprehensive picture of what happened.
Also, were you arrested? We would like to hear your story.
Click here for details on how to contact The Guardian if you have something to share.
10:35 PM New York Times Police Bureau Chief Al Baker contributes to another Occupy Wall Street article. This article tries to get citizens to empathize and understand why white-shirted officers have been the ones man-handling protesters.
10:27 PM In case you missed it: TWU President John Samuelson on “Countdown” explains why TWU is supporting Occupy Wall Street.
10:20 PM Minor episode just unfolded. @SabzBrach has a series of tweets indicating a girl was just arrested. It seems like she chained herself to her bike. Five officers were on the scene and girl was arrested. The bike had to be sawed off. It’s all very peculiar.
8:23 PM Ava, who was arrested yesterday, gives a firsthand account of what it was like to be arrested. She describes the thought process that went through her head when she figured out she had no choice but to be arrested:
…The officers were only letting about five people at a time leave. Several minutes passed and suddenly they quit letting people leave. A white shirted officer began to shout to the rear of the crowd, “You wanted to stay! Now you’re staying! You’re all getting arrested!” Many people in the rear of the crowd began to freak out – many were crying and begging to leave willingly.
I contemplated what to do. In my mind it would be better for me to willingly turn myself in so that I could leave sooner and show that I was not resisting arrest, and explain that I was there to document and take photos. I was then yelled at by the same white-shirt that yelled at the crowd earlier, “You wanna go in? Ok, then step right up”, as if I was insincere about my willingness to go in…
Read her full account of the arrest (posted at myFDL). It has clearly moved her to consider participating more in the Occupy Wall Street activities.
8:14 PM Institute for Policy Studies video (which FDL’s David Dayen used in a recent post)
7:55 PM This is a joke, right? From MoveOn.org:
MoveOn is one of those liberal-leaning get-out-the-vote-for-Democrats organizations you want to watch closely as they use images from Occupy Wall Street to promote their weak campaigns for taking on Wall Street influence over politics in this country. Unless they are mobilizing people to join “occupy” events across America, they aren’t really helping. Engage in Internet activism but not as a substitute for physically demonstrating in your community.
7:52 PM Blogger Vanessa Banti puts into context the arrest of a 13-year-old girl on the Brooklyn Bridge yesterday
The face of this young woman tells the whole story – barely a teenager, stars on her jacket and Invader Zim hat and red highlights framing a determined, steady smile – she probably spent most of last night sitting handcuffed in a police van that usually holds murderers, rapists, and other types of violent criminals only because she was brave enough to ask the government “please, do not fail me.” Or “please, do not let the people who would ruin my future, literally let me starve on the streets to gain ever increasing amounts of wealth for themselves, do not let these people control your actions, what you do to make our nation better.” At 13 or 14 or 15 or however old she is, this young woman and the friends that were with her might even gain an arrest record – which cripples their ability to find a job, and thus makes this decision to engage in politics pricey in a way that very, very few elected officials have ever had to pay for their participation in government.
Follow the link to see the photo of the girl arrested. She is smiling in the photo.
7:51 PM Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz visited Occupy Wall Street today.
7:50 PM Photo album of Occupy Chicago
5:35 PM The scene at Liberty Park a few hours ago (via @jopauca)
5:28 PM Yes, protesters were likely kettled on the pedestrian walkway on the bridge. (See here.)
5:11 PM This image getting a lot of circulation. Let’s make sure more Americans see this:
4:45 PM More evidence of how Occupy Wall Street is not “disorganized”—this board gives people ways to assist with occupation operations (via @Colin_Jones):
4:02 PM This video shows a police officer telling protesters at the front of the march that if they do not leave the road they will be arrested. The protesters then go on to chant, “Take the bridge! Take the bridge!” This only makes the video of police leading the protesters more difficult to explain. (h/t yellowsnapdragon)
3:48 PM Laurie Penny (known on Twitter as @PennyRed), who brilliantly covered and put into perspective the London Riots earlier this year, has this op-ed on Occupy Wall Street. An excerpt:
So far, it’s pick-your-own cause, with grievances ranging from bank bail-outs to animal testing, and yet what most of the mainstream media seems to have missed is the fact that the occupation itself is its own demand. It’s a symbolic and practical reappropriation of space at the heart of the world’s most financially powerful square mile, an alternative community opening up like a magic window on a fairer future.
3:40 PM An example of the kinds of charges occupiers are receiving for marching onto the bridge—one occupier who we’ve been tracking since the action began:
3:05 PM
3:00 PM In case you missed it: NBC’s Richard Engel tweeted this yesterday just before the mass arrest:
12:29 PM For those compelled to help keep this growing movement alive and well, here is where to go to donate money. For making non-monetary items (like sending goods or supplies the occupation needs), here is a mailing address:
The UPS Store
Re: Occupy Wall Street
118A Fulton St. #205
New York, NY 10038
*Money orders only please, cannot cash checks yet. Non-perishable goods only. We can accept packages of any size. We’re currently low on food.
12:22 PM If the NYPD wasn’t doing anything shady, why walk over, pick out a legal observer (the green hat clearly designates him as a legal observer) and arrest him?
12:18 PM There should be no justification for the police pushing and shoving protesters. I’ve linked to the :59 mark of this video to show clear instance of police brutality. If the NYPD intended to arrest all of them, they could have just begun to arrest all the protesters.
12:13 PM PeasantParty has posted this video for today, if anyone is looking for a good protest song to go along with the spirit of the occupiers:
11:57 AM Femblogger’s post on Day One of Occupy DC
11:54 AM This clip—only fourteen seconds—shows the police leading protesters on to the street on the Brooklyn Bridge.
11:50 AM Yves Smith asks, “Is JP Morgan getting a good return on $4.6 million “gift” to NYC police?”
11:48 AM KrisAinTX on the importance of this live blog, which has been going since Day One of Occupy Wall Street: “If we can’t be there, we bear witness. We analyze the information coming in. We document things in real time. We are helping.” Good work FDL community.
11:42 AM My former mentor and friend Greg Mitchell of The Nation, who in the past year has blogged the Murdoch phone hacking scandal and WikiLeaks, now blogging “Occupy USA.”
11:39 AM New York Daily News reports on Occupy Wall Street receiving mail from supporters:
Twice a day, the Occupy Wall Street movement gets mail – so much the protesters had to designate an official “mailman.”…
…”I want to thank you for the many sacrifices you are making to better this nation,” read a note that Janet Bauer of Elk Grove Village, Ill., wrote to accompany her care package. She also threw in $30 in cash. “I’m a 51-year-old permanently disabled person who is unable to join you – but know my heart and hopes are with you.”
11:32 AM NYT‘s Ginia Bellafante redeems herself with this report that for the most part fairly contextualizes the arrests of protesters yesterday and in the past weeks. The report mentions some details on protest history in New York. The only thing that is terribly awkward is the mention of the “left’s ruling class” and whom Bellafante dubs the “left’s ruling class.” I don’t know if the left has a “ruling class.” If it does, I don’t know who holds the power to convince people to mobilize and protest.
622 Comments
Wow. Just WOW!
Kevin great job,
There is link in the commetns of your prior thread to video of police arresting a child who appears to be about 10 or 11 years old. It’s around 11PM in the thread.
So what if, according to the NYT, the protesters are leaderless, inchoate, and have their own reasons for marching (unlike Tea-Baggers bussed in by plutocrats and fed propaganda by right-wingers), their actions are magnificent!
Thanks FDL for being on top of this people’s action!
I’m going to go back and look. Thanks Cynthia.
I don’t agree with the police arresting people when they could have just blocked their path onto the roadway or directed them to the pedestrian walkway but wasn’t it sort-of foolhardy for the protesters in the front to say, “Take the bridge?” Emotion should not trump reason.
Kevin – I also posted two videos somewhere in the 800s of police leading protestors onto the bridge. It’s pretty clear that they cops stopped folks before they entered the roadway, held them there for some time, then led them deliberately onto the bridge.
According to one of my friends, at 5:30 a.m. EDT CNN.com carried news of the arrests on its international edition but not on its U.S. edition. Amazing!
Not terribly surprising. The MSM is sitting on the story.
It seemed to me that the police almost encouraged the marchers to take to the road section of the bridge.
When the marchers got to the bridge, some went on to the pedestrian walk, others veered off onto the toad section. Initially, the police did nothing to deter nor warn the marchers off the road. I was surprised, having been part of my many protests on that bridge, that the police were allowing marchers onto the road. For a minute I thought, as many marchers also thought, that going on the road was kosher. Certainly the police didn’t make any indication that you would get arrested if you marched on the road as opposed to the pedestrian section.
It wasn’t until a sizable chunk of the march was on the road that the police then rolled out the meshes, kettled the protestors and then arrested them.
Thank you Kevin, so much, for all you are doing. Last night the local CBS affiliate did cover and film the modest but appreciated Albuquerque march in solidarity with New York (complete with some interviews and signage). The newscaster emphasized that it was peaceful and police helping the event – “in contrast” they said, to Occupy Wall Street, where five hundred protesters were arrested after “clashes with police”. I had followed your entire blog for Saturday, and all I picked up of “clashes” was some comments that some of those arrested were agitated and resisting arrest.
The CBS piece was duplicitous if not a downright lie,in what it said about the Occupy Wall Street event. No film was shown of the march in New York, so we were left with the commentator’s “assessment” of the situation there. Had it not been for FDL’s superlative coverage, I would have been completely in the dark as to what had happened.
How do you know it was the protesters?
Good morning.
Still very grateful for your fine coverage Kevin. This account jibes precisely with what i saw on the livefeed but not with what some of the corporate ‘news’ accounts are saying. Keep up this great and important work.
Perhaps the arrest of thousands will get the story off the blogs and into the MSM. I’m afraid of what the punditry will make of it, though.
How did the police get the meshes onto the roadway if the action was not planned entrapment by the NYPD to “arrest the ‘leaders’ of the protest”?
The punditry are now irrelevant.
I agree with this rhetorical question.
Whose Media?
OUR Media!!!
Superb coverage, Kevin, simply excellent reporting.
Orchestrated Pulse: The Revolution Will Not Be Actualized (Part 1): Republicans, Smarter Than Your Average Donkey (Again)
h/t RobtheIdealist Rob
“… wasn’t it sort-of foolhardy for the protesters in the front to say, “Take the bridge?” Emotion should not trump reason.”
Exactly so, thelongapple. Reason should prevail over emotion. Always.
And so, the mortgage lenders who encouraged home-buyers to borrow huge sums of money , for which deals said mortgage lenders made obscene amounts of money, knowing they would never have the capacity to repay, should not have let their greed prevail over their reason.
The bankers who repackaged these dicey loans and sold them off to investors at great profits knowing that grade D mortgages could not make AAA-rated investments, should not have let their greed prevail over their reason.
The executives of large corporations who dump toxic sludge on the land and spew poisonous gases into the air, knowing that it makes the waters undrinkable and the air unbreatheable and causes childhood cancers, because disposing of it safely would cut into their bottom line, should not have let their greed prevail over their reason.
The fast food behemoths who push fatty, salty. high calorie -low nutritive value foods loaded with high fructose corn syrup, onto our vulnerable children, knowing that these lead to obesity, diabetes and heart disease, but whose sale is oh-so-rewarding to their bottom lines, should not have let their greed prevail over their reason.
this right here IS the news!
tv “news” is for morons and dopamine junkies
Let me elaborate. No one takes the punditry seriously but the Village and political junkies. They no longer shape popular opinion the way that editorial writers did in the 1950s and 1960s. That is because they are so out-of-touch with the reality of anyone outside their own circle.
There are documentaries that the CBC will only broadcast inside Canada (see the pointer at 256). It’s easy to do. In the CBC instance, examine the IP addresses of incoming traffic.
Facebook and Google distort views of the ‘Net if one doesn’t know how to detect it. This is a good primer, Video: Facebook and Google explained in simple terms (Sept. 28, 2011) with more at “Leave Google Behind.”
Get more cops on our side. make signs like:
HIRE COPS AND FIREMEN
LAY OFF BANKERS AND CEOS
BONUSES FOR FIRST RESPONDERS
JAIL FOR BANKERS ETC.
These people are American Heroes, American Citizens standing up against the evil of their time….GREED…stand with them, I do…..
What I like about this General Assembly process– which can’t be done from behind a computer– is the rebuilding of local community and that it has gone viral. Soon the rotted political “infrastructure” finally collapses as folks simply walk away from it. It’s the American version of the Sametová Revoluce (“Velvet Revolution“). Dramatic de-centralization based upon honesty, integrity and real human needs and cooperation is the right thing to do right now as far as I am concerned.
Just added one of your videos.
You were there? Is it okay to post this account in the blog?
Saw in Newser today that Kristof made a suggestion that OWS needs to be making demands–that they had no demands–such as–a small tax on transactions…closing loopholes that allow income to be disguised as capital gains…limit banks’ ability to engage in risk…create a bank tax so banks can pay for their own bailouts… Don’t know about the tax on transactions–hope not every day small withdrawals. Just on speculation stuff?? Some of these could be interesting.
A personal account (h/t Lisa Simeone):
The word “clashes” must always be in any story of protesters and police otherwise we might think the police were responsible for incompetently or competently creating a situation where arrests were deemed “necessary.”
Until recently I thought that too.
Now I see that I have not always served myself well by giving primacy to logic/reason over emotion/instinct. Now I understand that human emotion is often an alternative form of reasoning, a manifestation of sensory input to the central nervous system that enables us to process perceptions or information from external sources in ways we might not otherwise, if we rely solely on the “five senses.”
In this case, the marchers went with feelings and reason, which combined lead to an outcome with a high probability for ultimate success of the mission: to further solidify, widen, and deepen the occupation.
That said, emotion should not trump reason either. The ability to rapidly integrate emotion/feeling with logic/reason in high-stakes decision-making is useful. Giving primacy to one or the other most often is not. It seems that some people are born with this ability; others must learn it; and some others cannot.
Check out: How We Decide by Jonathan Lehrer
very good suggestion
it would make an ironic image: police arresting people protesting police layoffs and benefit cuts
more tony baloney
General Assembly of Patriots is a way to feel comraderie, and realize that the media pundits do not represent the 99%. Stand shoulder to shoulder with another Citizen, and feel your strength. These folks are worthy of respect and support. They are your kids, with no hope of a job, or home. your neighbor boy who waves an advertising sign around on the street for minimum wage.
There is a long history of Public General Assembly in the US. Read of the Bonus Soldier March.
Us old dudes at least had the hope of a job and a way to pay the doctor when we need it…..these folks feel helpless about their future, stand with them, I do……..
It seems to me that as Occupy Wall St. moves across the country with organizers everywhere promoting the same GA process, democracy to the max, and all that “incoherency,” that there is In Fact quite an organizational model in place and that it is working. Otherwise, what exactly is going on with all this Occupying Everywhere? Mass movement brilliance, I think would be a better idea to promote. We can do that, because MSM is not going to do it.
thanks for keeping it real for all of us who are out here supporting the Occupation of Wall St. We will get our democracy back, but we may have to die for it, just like everywhere else.
Re-creation of civil society. No more Bowling Alone.
As others have opined, our culture seems to be drowning in in information and starving for wisdom.
Kristof’s suggestions are fair but impatient. The concern is understandable but unnecessary. The longer this is drawn out, the bigger the movement grows. I would not make any demands yet. There is no end in sight, unless all of these people plan to leave the park on Wednesday and head to DC.
I now happen to think Occupy Wall Street will continue during October 2011. The Oct 6 action on Freedom Plaza will commence in solidarity with the bold citizens of Occupy Wall Street. If those two actions are going strong come Oct 8, you can bet it will seem American citizens have launched an uprising.
October 2011 is much more organized than Occupy Wall Street. They have demands. They will be making decisions through a General Assembly process but have demands already. That may influence occupiers in Liberty Park. It may not. They have cooperated with each other.
We can only continue to show solidarity and watch closely. If we are there, we can join in the struggle and participate. Needless to say, history is being made.
Yesterday at one of the two Occupy Wall St. events in our state, we witnessed support from Fire Truck drivers, a lot of other big rig drivers, shuttle drivers, and more support than not from the passersby in cars and such. It is a movement that makes sense for a lot of people, 99% is everyone I know and meet.
I just wish like others that I could be a part of this. Can we send anything to help the movement continue?
if i were ows, i wouldn’t even consider such small bore items
that smacks of obamaesque strategeric negotiating
now is the time to grab the whole enchilada, not a tiny shred of tortilla
I agree with this. Logical reasoning isn’t everything. It’s necessary, but not always sufficient.
The financial transaction tax proposals are on non-commercial (i,e. investment) transactions. Most of the proposed tax rates don’t exceed 1 mil (1/10 of a percent). It would slow down the rapidity with which speculative trades are made, damping the frenzy that surrounds bubbles.
I think it also will continue. Arab Spring, Occupy Fall.
great comment!
amd excellent reporting
i think you may be reporting at the cusp of history, i sure hope so
“Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.” Frederick Douglass, 1857.
Andrew Ross Sorkin of NYT said yesterday that there were only about 80 people participating in OWS, which begs the question; where did the other 620 people they arrested come from?
Though I’m certain they were talking about the people who were arrested a week ago, it still shows the depths to which they will sink to marginalize a movement that terrifies them.
The other video, at the 2:15 mark, contains a white shirt NYPD apparently waving protestors onto the bridge from the head of the column.
Should we consider eschewing the word protesters, in favor of occupiers?
For me there is no need for articulated specific demands. The implicit statement of Occupation is that “We are here. This is ours, too. It’s not just yours.” For me, that is message enough.
Occupation connotes implicit success, because occupying is precisely what they are doing and what they are saying they are doing. No transaction with, no dependence on the 1%, is required. The conditions for vacating the occupation will be self-evident when we all perceive tangible results of the three branches of government at all levels working again for We the People, the 99%.
Just a thought.
that is an interesting point
when a pig becomes a hog it gets slaughtered
until this year, cops and firefighters were sacred even to the plutocrats
now, even the enforcers of the plutocracy are under attack
99%
AUSTIN AREA firedogs –
#OccupyAustin General Assembly is today, from 4 to 7pm.
422 Guadalupe St., Austin. Just off of 35 S and 7th Street.
I’ll be there
Folks I am 62 the 1968 Democratic Convention protests can teach a big lesson here. GET THE COPS EMOTIONALLY ON YOUR SIDE. They are the frontline troops of the Money Masters. Challenge them to arrest you while you are holding a sign supporting: Hire Cops and Teachers/Lay off Bankers.
The purpose of the General Assembly initially is to get positive attention. Make Cops and those at home feel you are representing THEM.
Right on.
“Up Where We Belong” – Buffy Sainte-Marie
I’ve been using ‘occupiers’ to refer to the core group of 300-400 that sleep in Liberty Plaza every night, and ‘protestors’ as a more general descriptor to refer to the groups marching every day.
WHY did the police do mass arrests?
This wouldn’t have happened if the protesters had restricted themselves to the free speech zone.
Great comment from the NYT comments-intentional snark, or unintentional snark? You decide.
These people are getting lots of advice, none of which they need.
I, for one, will follow this advice henceforth.
Not just a USG thing but occurring throughout many centralGs as the 1%ers have grown even more disconnected from reality (e.g. Ukraine).
Don’t know if any saw this at the end of the last thread, but the ARTICLE i LINKED TO ABOUT THE nypd FOUNDATION ALSO SAYS kELLY’S WIFE WAS EMPLOYED BY THE FOUNDATION IN ONE OF THOSE FAMOUS “BIG SHOT’S WIFE” JOBBIES. (apologies, caps unintentional, too lazy to retype again. My bad.)
The biggest mistake we made in 68 was failure to have regular people at home watching “Fox News” feel we reprsented them. It is crucial to the whole future of this chance. If we alienate the “Fox News” folks , we are hosed.
I agree with this. Ultimately, I’m still an anti-capitalist, pro-pareconist. That will never change. And ultimately, new institutions and organizational structures must be built. But if they are built too quickly, without a real understanding through experience and a genuine commitment to horizontal organizing, they risk being corporate and vertically hierarchical.
I hope somebody in OWS has some familiarity with pareconish theory; I think it would help things down the road. But even if no one does, a commitment to brick-by-brick building of truly horizontal institutions if more important.
As commentators like Doug Henwood have noted, without “an organization with some form of leadership … there can be no politics.” That’s true, but a typical coordinator-class dominated organization — like literally any and all large organizations of the left — will produce results that can be predicted with great accuracy.
I’d rather people go too slowly and get it right, than move too quickly and end up just creating a new liberal techno-managerial class.
The issue is process, not policy. Fix the process; you go a long way towards fixing the policy.
The motu eventually and inevitably turn to untapped sources because their greed knows no bounds and they have no scruples. In the constant and all consuming quest for more money/power/influence, they always, always go too far and then the people rise up and put a stop to it. They never. Fucking. Learn.
Arab Spring, European Summer, American Fall, the Winter of Our Discontent. And then it’s spring again.
The demand is for a seat at the table proportional to the size of the constituency – 99%. I think that in the wake of the Citizens United decision that that is a very specific demand.
Chant from the Brooklyn Bridge:
Ya think that that might be why there is an Occupy Den Haag and and Occupy Tokyo and…?
Yes, see the update I just posted at 12:29 PM. They have a site for taking money donations. They also have a mailing address if you want to send a care package.
Wouldn’t Americans do? You don’t “occupy” your own country. The Tea Party gets that. It’s “take our country back”. Don’t tell middle America that you are “occupiers”, you “commie hippies” you.
I use the two pretty interchangeably. We can debate language and certainly language matters. I’m not sure if I favor one over the other.
Sweet, more of the same will be the ticket to msm nightly news, let the silent citizens feel alignment with the Patriots, no more viewing protestors as “dirty lazy hippies” These people are Heroes, American Citizens standing up for “Right” the world expects us to be,(as raygun put it) FREEDOM MEN……Doing “Right” draws support……
PATRIOTS AMERICAN CITIZENS…..THAT IS THE TERM
Again, really, seems Bloomberg has a conflict of interest in ‘protecting’ his personal interests on Wall Street. His Bloomberg News seems to need all of Wall Street and doesn’t Bloomberg own 30% of Merrill Lynch–the wealth management division of Bank of America? Does the guy need to step down for a while, or resign for appearing to let loose the NYPD on peaceful protesters in the city?
And again, Mayor Bloomberg admitted ahead of time that he knew there would be protesting and “anarchy” due to the bad economy and no jobs. He needed to put out a porta-potty or two, had first-aid stations and requested Salvation Army trucks to offer soup, bread, water and coffee to the concerned and hurting, peaceful protesters instead of playing what appeared to be ‘gotcha’ at the Bridge with the NYPD.
Bloomberg is mayor for all-not just Wall Street profiteers. No one can sweep this many people under the carpet. There need to be changes. It is AMAZING how peaceful the people are at OWS–considering how Wall Street seems to have been allowed to pillage and plunder and hurt America and the lives of so many. Where are Bernanke and Obama’s little Peter Pan boy on OWS? Hope Peter Pan Boy has not been in Europe giving away MORE of our money to the EU–think that ship is sailing again.
The biggest mistake was IMO not showing up with a forest of American flags and daring the CPD to drag those on the ground.
It’s damn easy to marginalize folks defacing the American flag and especially those waving the Viet Cong flag. I saw in a protest march in Evanston IL in 1969 a truck driver jump out his cab and fling a protester with a Viet Cong flag to to the street with the police looking on hands folded. The older middle class folks cheered the truck driver. If there were fist-bumps and high-fives among that generation, they would have been doing them.
And the interesting thing was that a lot of the folks cheering privately opposed the war but were still under the red scare.
Ding. Ding. Ding.
That peacefulness comes about as a deliberate principle, a workable strategy, and much training to achieve tactical discipline in a potentially violent environment. It is a whole lot of hard work. And the ability to sustain discipline is maintained through the public microphone, which yesterday at the point of arrest allow the front ranks to sit down and lock arms at the same time. And by the strength of implied numbers of supporters. Confidence instead of panic.
ding ding ding is right friend..
Ring that Liberty Bell….speak of these people on the bridge and in the city as Superheroes, they are AMERICAN CITIZENS..PATRIOTS……THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON IN THE WORLD……use the “force” standing up for “RIGHT” needs no explanation, no leader, no demands…….all americans secretly want to be superman…battling evil…..reprsent them with our words, they will join us then in their own ways……..
GO FORTH AND DO GOOD AND ATTEMPT TO CURE THE ILLS OF MANKIND…that is what these PATRIOTS are doing for us………
Hint: Who drives the buses in NYC?
Seriously.
From the Global Revolution live stream …
The Marines are present. Interviews later.
Semper Fi
Hold up an FDL sign.
It’s at Republic Square Park which takes up a whole block between 4th and 5th streets and between Guadalupe and San Antonio streets.
I’m planning to get there too.
The majority of our 99% brethren are not Americans.
Veterans
Camos? I thought the plan was dress blues and dress greens.
Monks at Charly’s
I cannot do links, but
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIWn5FS5FkU&feature=email makes an apt protest anthem (The Uprising by the Muse), linked as it is in this video to the Spanish Revolution. If this does not get your juices flowing, nothing will.
FWIW
Occupy the Village Voice
@Newyorkist
This is why I don’t like the term “99%”. In Class Warfare Indeed, Michael Parenti writes
Yes, capitalists own the means of production and constitute about 1% of the population. But ownership is not the only way that people are divided into economic classes. There is also a third class of people, about 18-20% of the population, who monopolize empowering tasks within the economy.
This is the coordinator class, and it was the ruling class in the centrally-planned socialist economy of the former Soviet Union, and in the market socialist economy of the former Yugoslavia. And it’s the class the parecon eliminates.
However, on the left, no one wants to see the existence of the coordinator class — because the left, by and large, is the coordinator class. Whites don’t wish to see or even acknowledge their race privileges, but non-whites are acutely aware of white privilege. Men don’t wish to see or even acknowledge their gender privilege, but women are acutely aware of male privilege.
So too are workers aware of the division-of-labor privileges enjoyed by coordinators. While coordinators may hate capitalists, it’s coordinators that workers truly hate. If the left wants to truly organize workers in mass numbers, its going to have to come to grips with the existence of the coordinator class, and the privileges enjoyed by coordinators.
Talking about the “99%” is just another way for the coordinator-class left to obscure an honest understanding of class relations. This virtually non-existent understanding, as well as complete refusal to acquire it, is why I often say class is as poorly understood in 2011 as gender was in 1825.
Parenti talks about slaveholders (owners) and slaves, but what about the overseers? Coordinators are industrial capitalism’s version of overseers. It’s why I say that, deep down, the true goal of the coordinator-class/overseer left is to replace the plantation owner and take over the cotton-growing operations for themselves, but still with their working-class slaves picking the cotton.
Celeb watch: Geraldo Rivera
Still looking for Al Capone’s safe?
Random thoughts reading the thread…first thanks to all of you astute observers/commentators and Kevin for following this whole movement so closely for the past 2+ weeks.
Second, I prefer occupy over protesters…but I too use both words in comments as well as the word demonstrators and/ or those involved in the movement.
Third, as far a demands…I think that we may need to understand that not all of us in this country (and the world) are following this so closely as we are here and have been for the past 2 weeks. Knowledge of this movement is still imo in its infancy…and only growing…and has significant room to grow. I believe that there is still time for the movement to grow in size and cohesion, a chance for more strength in numbers, before specific demands are made (although there are several good starting points being made that I agree with such as debt forgiveness, prosecution of WS and banstah crimes including SEC/regulators who enabled it, are just a few that I agree with off the top of my head.
Fourth, agree with those who say we need to better connect with the rank and file police force. We are on their side and protesting to protect them, their jobs, and their benefits. Yes connecting the dots that these police officers are part of the movement we are fighting for. WE need austerity for hedgefund managers, Banstahs and Wall Street, not for Police/Fire and first responsders. Cut bankster/CEO bonuses, not Police pensions and healthcare benefits.
Fifth, I admire the restraint and peaceful nature of the occupiers…good for them for keeping their emotions in check and remaining peaceful…and am happy to see how articulate and educated/ aware many are of the movement.
Sixth, I am also with those who are mentioning possibly moving a march over to the large corporate media outlet there who are part of the problem in this country. …what about a large contingent over at those morning shows that often show the crowds outside or do segments outdoors? Or? I’ve pretty much stopped watching tv years ago so I am not one to really make a suggestion though.
Seventh, I understand that there is also a newspaper published by the group Occupy Wall Street Journal…awesome…great job people. (would love to get my hands on one of those)
My hat is tipped to you all, and I applaud you all.
We are the 99%.
If you figure out how to get a paper copy, please post in the thread. I’ve sent out tweets inquiring how, but have gotten no leads. I’m *dying* to get a copy!
Maybe best would be to go directly to youtube and type in Spanish Revolution-English(Muse Uprising)
This is really an upper!
BTW, we’ve talked some over the last couple of weeks about producing a bullet point list of facts about how Wall Street plundered NYPD police pensions to hand out to the rank and file.
I volunteered for the job, but failed miserably from lack of time to accomplish the research and writing. If anyone is willing to take over that job, please do!
They look like Theravadans (predominately from southeast asia; example). I have seen male and female ordained on alms rounds near San Francisco and the northwest. At some point they may quietly file past Liberty Plaza on alms rounds when and if they think it appropriate. That would be very kewl as well as a significant statement. Watch which way the bowl faces (up or down) when they do it.
I like, and agree with, these observations.
However, I think “99%” is a rhetorical device used to beckon and invite those who are reflexively in the coordinator class. It’s obviously not a term of analysis.
To do the “fancy” links, type your descriptive text in the comment editor, click the chain link icon, paste the link in the text box then click “OK.”
Oh, that’s good.
I like that thought a lot.
I’m also kinda harking back to the way the occupiers have chosen to refer to themselves and their action.
It’s all good!
Wow! That’s a stunning report. I’m glad he’s out there and that he’s reporting.
As long as it’s coupled with honest class analysis, including the coordinator class as a third class in addition to owners and workers, then I’m fine with it. My fear is that it won’t be. That is, I’m afraid that coordinators will still refuse to see their division-of-labor privileges within the economy. But I’d be happy to be proven wrong about that.
Theoretical clarity can sap practical effectiveness.
What has happened as organizations have flattened is that the “coordinator class” has been laid off as fast as manufacturing workers. A coordination span of 1 supervisor of 8 to 20 workers has been flattened to a span of 1 supervisor to 30 to 50 workers. A proportion of the coordinator class knows they are one decision away from losing that status (and class is a status and privilege category as much as anything). Appealing to the 99% brings consciousness that their interests are no longer with their employers. Their labor can be strip-mined as easy as any other.
But your analysis has some relevance here in relation to the position of the white-shirt police officers. These guys are caught full-face in the contradiction of their coordination class position. Their pensions are being cut too. They are pushed for results they cannot attain. They work overtime without compensation, unlike their subordinates. And they are not experiencing a loss of public status as a result of their behavior.
It is the folks in the coordinating class who must choose what side they are on.
The danger is that the coordinating class becomes post-change the new privileged people.
The practical requirement is for large numbers of people to call the system to account. The practical strategy is to talk about the 1% and the 99%, because the coordinating class does not have political clout either.
Action is an experiment. Let’s look at theory again after the results of the experiment are in. And we see how the issues of coordination are dealt with.
Seconded. Although it *is* important that the coordinators understand how they are being used and get them to join the rest of us.
Now, that’s REALLY good!
On 6, a small contingent has already shown up outside the windows of a couple of morning shows.
We are all flesh and blood human beings, not “protestors”, not “occupiers”, and not merely “citizens” … the desire for rational, reasonable, and humane change is becoming the demand of the majority of the world’s human beings to make the decisions which affect their OWN lives, hopes, aspirations, and possibilities … it as been ten thousand years in the “making” and “building” … You are so very correct, Petro, in saying that most of those who courageously understand and stand for justice and true freedom are NOT Americans, and it is time we welcomed and embraced this truth.
DW
That’s reasonable.
I have no objection to this.
From DemocraticUnderground via Frosty1:
This was taken from a message I just received on facebook:
“The Marines are coming to Wall St…(to PROTECT the protestors) “I’m heading up there tonight in my dress blues. So far, 15 of my fellow marine buddies are meeting me there, also in Uniform. I want to send the following message to Wall St and Congress: I didn’t fight for Wall St. I fought for America. Now it’s Congress’ turn. My true hope, though, is that we Veterans can act as first line of defense between the police and the protester. If they want to get to some protesters so they can mace them, they will have to get through the Fucking Marine Corps first. Let’s see a cop mace a bunch of decorated war vets. I apologize now for typos and errors. Typing this on iPhone whilst heading to NYC. We can organize once we’re there. That’s what we do best. If you see someone in uniform, gather together. A formation will be held tonight at 10PM. We all took an oath to uphold, protect and defend the constitution of this country. That’s what we will be doing. Hope to see you there!!”
(If this has already been posted, overlook)
Get ready for a lot more of this and for the attacks to to get much much uglier. Bring it on! It means we are winning.
Just a good thought. Very nice to have someone so thoughtful here with us.
Yeah, I got that. Just saying it out loud mostly for myself. Heh.
CNN on Trinity Place
Would you want to send the OccupyWallSt folks some literature? Kevin’s got their mailing address on Fulton Street up top somewhere.
Reports are that VVAW is organizing this.
That’s actually a good idea.
Eventually, they may tumbrel to a better understanding lol.
I really love this. Let’s see Tony Baloney take on the Marines!
Good Deal. I knew the Vet association was, but did not know that specific groups of Marines would be there dressed in uniform. Look out, Dan Choi. You got some uniform competition. (grins) Can’t wait to see it!
I totally disagree with your perspective. The 18-20% “coordinator class” that you refer to is rapidly slipping into peonage status as the elite capitalist class tightens its hold on power and wealth. My only problem with the term “99%” is that the true ruling class is now much less than 1% of the population, much closer to 0.01% or even less. If 18-20% of the population are viewed as class enemies, there is no hope for liberation from the corporate stranglehold.
LOL! That’s the TWOOPH! Tony Baloney can’t run fast enough to get away from the Mad Hatters about Mace.
In terms of OWS, Eric, what role does the coordinator/gatekeeper class actually play?
OWS is serving as a new model of political decision-making, and it will be open to civil society models that might well include those ideas which you have been sharing for quite some time.
In your economic vision, what role does the coordinator/gatekeeper/managerial class play?
As Petro suggests, the ues of the 99% meme is a rhetorical device, yet it might be a reflection, as well, of a different kind of society with different roles and expectations for its members.
DW
That is a great line and good advise for leading a life with meaning.
Found this image of The Occupied Wall Street Journal online..hoping someone who has the newspaper would scan it into a pdf document for the rest of us to read.
For those who haven’t seen it yet:
Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
Ooh, don’t let too much magic out of the bag yet, my friend…
I think it’s quite OK to use the English approximation, “compassion,” in regard to community building and, actually, in any decision making.
Excellent. More voices.
As much as I’d like to read every inch of the paper, what I *really* want is a paper copy to carefully save for posterity. It’s an important document for history.
This gets to my “node privilege” issue from communications theory as the web of communications in the Occupy movement widens.
This really bothers me. In a “war” being waged against Wall Street, you take one hill at a time, plant your flag, and move on to the next hill. Division of goals can be very harmful and promotes loss of focus.
Thank you, SD.
DW
Excellent Statement! More to come and that is just as great. I am awed by the real democratic process going on there. It is not top down but bottom up.
That’s the way our system should be. However, crooks hijacked it and now cower behind public servants!
Back in the 60s-70s we said they were “peepin’ the freaks.”
The Chicago needs of the protesters list included feminine hygiene products, which I found amazing and encouraging.
Thanks for continuing to dispense quality wisdom, TD. Learning from you every day.
BBC: Hundreds freed after New York Wall Street protest
Me too. How often is it being published?
I know a few people who live off the crumbs of other wealthy family members who may be in the top 1%. These people, then, act for and vote to support the 1% when they are actually doing it against their real, or own social-economic interests. It’s interesting to see the pretenders. And then, there are some 1%ers who support and vote to help others’ lower-income economic interests. We might need another word or phrase for the 99% thing.
OWS sounds so far as if it is classless (I’d have to be there to see it for myseld to know for sure), but then again they haven’t attempted to build new institutions yet — at least not ones of any scale. That’s completely reasonable, I think, on many levels. My concern would be that, if and when the thing reaches a certain size and some form of organization is required, that without good theory, a new coordinator class may arise.
Parecon is a classless economic model. There are no owners or coordinators, only workers (or no class at all if you prefer). I can’t really go into it, but I would start here, here, and then finally here.
(Professional economists should go here, and probably here too.)
Well, Petro, ’tis something I’ve been thinking about for fity years … as well as the narratives necessary to sharing such notions in an unthreatening and easily embracable fashion. Change is upon us and ’twere better, me thinks, to ponder possibility and intentionally seek a humane and inclusive cooperative destination of sorts than to blunder into the old notions of control and manipulation.
Timing … is, of course …
;~DW
In fairness, the list of grievances does have some attention to them. And there is a statement that the list “is not inclusive”. That it’s open ended.
One of the advantages of being a geezer. You’ve seen a lot of shit.
Should like to learn more, TD, when time permits you to expand upon this “issue”.
DW
ysd, I can’t undertake the job, but the key point would be that state pension funds would certainly be among those required to invest only in AAA securities, and thus they almost certainly heavied up on the fraudently AAA rated mortgage-backed securities, because they had higher yields than any other AAA’s around. I would research what the NYPD pension funds were invested in from 2002-2009.
Twitter Update from occupydc.org
Police moved #occupydc to Franklin Park at K and 14th. Spread the word pls!
Ah yes, “perspective” … TD.
;~DW
As geezerette I would like to agree with that.
I’m on your flank with this, DW.
I didn’t really say enemies. But go ask a janitor or a cashier what they think of management. Workers hate coordinators, because these are the people who boss them around every day and treat them like they’re stupid. The left needs to understand how workers perceive coordinators — as well as how coordinators perceive workers … because coordinators generally do think workers are stupid.
Second that. It’s really not a national-only phenomenon.
I thought you were going to stop pushing that plan here. Nobody here can do anything about it now. You keep filling up the space with it and still haven’t given a theory dissertation to the major economists in this country.
The 1% folks who are supportive, such as Russell Simmons, understand the division–between the ones who can ring up a member of Congress and get to talk directly to the guy or gal. And the ones who can’t.
I think the terminology is one of the best things they have going for them. It is intuitively true.
Not a time to overthink terminology from the outside. If you want to raise that issue, find a general assembly is my advice. What we say here doesn’t affect what going on in general assemblies. And I would be appalled if it did.
I did that. First, I donated $20 online, because to just send books when they’re asking for food would make me an asshole. I don’t mind being an asshole, but not when people need food.
Then I sent two copies of Parecon: Life After Capitalism, because I like getting free shipping. I included a note with my email address (and to let them know that I actually did donate money as well), for no real reason.
search previous threads of my comments with the term “network”. You should see a few.
You are largely right, and this is a grave flaw in our consciousness. We all need to realize we are on the same side, and above all show empathy, openness, and compassion for one another.
I never said I was going to stop talking about it. You’d have to burn me at the stake first.
Agreed…..right there with you on that one.
Woot! Now you can say “Occupy K Street”.
I think that observation is accurate; it certainly accords with what I hear from my “coordinator” friends.
Was not aware of that…good to know..again I don’t watch those shows, but I know many of my coworkers and many millions of people do.
Your integrity is instructive and a fine thing to behold.
Understood and very much appreciated, Petro.
;~DW
If anyone is in Boston…
A little action for now. But it definitely seems to be a part of their thinking.
Will do, TD, and thank you.
DW
And actually, there have been anywhere from 5-7 books written about parecon and parecon-related themes:
1. Parecon: Life After Capitalism
2. The Political Economy of Participatory Economics
3. Looking Forward: Participatory Economics for the 21st Century
4. Quiet Revolution in Welfare Economics
5. Unorthodox Marxism
6. What Is To Be Undone
7. Socialism in Theory and Practice
8. Socialism Today and Tomorrow
I mean, there’s plenty of material out there if anyone is interested.
Good on ya! Sustenance for the body and sustenance for the mind. Now you’ve contributed to the OWS Library and gotten the ideas you want to see to the people you want to see them.
Fantastic idea for action for Occupy Wall Street; Time to Escalate!
A commenter at Huffington Post, to Van Jones’ (sympathetic) article Wall Street Protests: Which Side Are You On?
wrote:
I was in Manhattan, yesterday, and picked up a copy of The Occupied Wall Street Journal. (I’m pleased to report that it’s populist in tone, and isn’t gratuitously ideological.)
So, my suggestion is to do both things at once, say once or twice a day: The OWS protestors can grab copies of the OWS Journal, along with brochures about credit unions, and pass out both, simultaneously, in front of branch offices of Citibank, et., al. .
With any luck, OWS will inspire copycat actions by the other occupations throughout the country. Also, they could inspire citizens who aren’t willing to join an occupation, to nevertheless occupy the sidewalk near their local Citibank, et. al., branch, and imitate that part of the process.
To be worked out: the logistics of printing OWS journals and distributing them throughout the country. IMO, a version should be created that can be printed out on 8 1/2″ x 11″ paper, so that citizens can just download and print out. The current version is very wide – much wider than a regular newspaper.
Also, as I implied in Status Quo Busters: How FDL+DK+DU progressives can ‘cross the beams’ and revolutionize politics, using a copier to reproduce text is much cheaper than a desktop printer. The study I saw claimed 1/10 of a cent, per page. The ink used for a desktop printer will probably cost about 5 cents per page.
N.B.: Arian Huffington had tried to get people to move money out of kleptocratic banks. So, this idea isn’t particularly original. However, the timing and context for doing this sort of action, in a way that has legs, is much better, now.
Can you give us one example of where your parecon has ever existed? I think you know very well that this is not possible in any country but you talk about it constantly. Why don’t you think of something that is actually doable.
“So what if, according to the NYT, the protesters are leaderless, inchoate, and have their own reasons for marching…”
Actually it is a brilliant tactic to be leaderless. Movement leaders can be arrested, tortured and assassinated. The protestors know this.
Can’t find a pdf for the damn thing! Damn!
Because they’re Jamie Dimon’s cops? Just askin’.
The police are employing intimidation tactics to get the protestors to back down. This is a mistake, they have only fired up the protestors.
I have long thought of integrity as an instrument of change. That and the finally unknowability that you’ve accomplished anything at all. I’m not a big fan of Saul of Tarsus/Paul the Apostle, but there is one quote that I remember from my religious upbringing just for the imagery that Paul uses:
I think you have to go to the J.B. Phillips version of the New Testament to see it translated with that wording.
What a fabulous campanion to Occupy Wall Street! Take the money out of K Street…Occupy K Street!
Ha! Yes, that has an appealing ring to it!
And thank you for your earlier compliment on my diary…much appreciated…and thanks to Kevin for linking to my diary in today’s Dissenter’s post, plus they promoted it to front page MyFDL. I’m feeling a little special right now…
I expect to make more reports. Maybe later this eve, folowing the late afternoon GA meeting of Occupy DC.
Eclair, extremely well said.
If I don’t get any leads on a paper copy by tomorrow, I’m sending a self-addressed stamped envelope with a lil’ cash to the Occupy Wall Street address above and I’ll just see what happens.
Photo of the front page above the fold. Murdoch’s been pwnd!
Question: Does OccupyWallStreet have the ability to cook in their kitchen? Are they cooking for their people? Or are they only eating food delivered that’s already prepared?
Those of us in the Tampa area who can’t be with you physically are sure with you in spirit.
Naver. Give. Up.
On a national level? No, it has never existed. But what kind of argument is that? Since something has never existed, it can never exist? That’s not a real argument. If it were, we’d all still be living in caves.
Can you imagine someone saying about ending slavery, or women’s rights, or ending the Vietnam (or any) War, if people said to do something that was “actually doable?”
How about stopping global warming? We’ve never done that. Does that mean that that is not “actually doable?” What kind of defeatist attitude is that? If that’s your viewpoint, why even bother fighting for anything? Why not just go to the beach and enjoy yourself, since we’re never going to win anything anyway?
Sorry, I’m just not down with that.
Tweet the idea about handing out credit union info AND the OWS Journal with the hashtag #occupywallstreet. Might take take two tweets.
. . . everything. Or almost.
THIS is why I love FireDogLake.
I thought they were doing it to grow the movement. /s
Don’t ask me about my Rock the Rock idea.
I’ve seen that a number of times. With a pdf I can get it printed out at Kinko’s. Certainly not 50,000 but I could get some out.
Just tweeted a request for a pdf so we can read the whole thing…
I think you’re oversimplifying. Yes, workers hate coordinators for pushing them around and treating them like they’re stupid – not because of their status as coordinators. To some extent, much of that behavior and attitude comes from corporate culture (training/indoctrination to treat workers badly, pressure from above to increase productivity beyond reasonable levels or maintain worker discipline while the company is actively screwing them, deliberate barriers placed between labor and management to encourage class division and a sense of superiority in management, etc).
You’ll be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks they have a good boss or supervisor but hates them for their position anyway.
I appreciate your concerns about the coordinator class but at this point I can’t see how attempting to split them off from the 99% is helpful or even legitimate. Middle managers are no more the enemy than the police are.
What do you think the top three issues are that makes it undoable?
Your modesty reflects well on youu, TD, but very few geezers have learned along the way as well as you seem to have done.
You’re planning to occupy Alcatraz?
#OccuponsMontréal launched.
Okay, I’ll bite… What’s your Rock the Rock idea?
kickstarter said they’d have one up asap. Haven’t seen it there or anywhere.
Well, I can help Twain out on that. First, Eric did a good thing by writing his own diary on the subject. Now he just takes over anybody’s diary with the theories. Second, Wall Street hasn’t fallen yet so a replacement is far from being implemented. Third, it is going to take a great deal more effort and publication than just here at FDL to gather support from the rest of this country.
Fourth, when people come here for updates on the occupation they seriously don’t want to read through alternative banking links.
I’m OK with the idea that they promote physical newspapers and entice folks to want to read them again and even create their own local ones. The movement to online “news” has primarily promoted systems consolidation to the 1%ers. This can be used to encourage the culture of democracy and its spreading.
Oh, kewl. They’re just busy, then. What with getting arrested yesterday and all.
Found this link to Occupy Wall Street Media . I know of someone online who has a copy and might try to scan and post it. Will keep you updated if that happens.
Indeed, integrity is the key to civilized living.
I having been reading about this since it was first mentioned here and IMO, given the nature of human beings, it’s not possible. Somewhere in the far distant future, perhaps but right now I don’t see workers self-managing, being paid according to “effort” and “sacrifice.” I can hear the raging arguments over that. The planning of work is possible but in every group I have ever seen, someone ends up leading. It’s a nice thing to think about but certainly not reachable at this point in time. We are imperfect beings.
You’re right. I am oversimplifying. I can’t reproduce the entire literature in a few words here and there. There are also control issues that are insurmountable. If you want to imagine a society without the 1%, well, you don’t have to. You can examine the real-world historical instances of a public-enterprise centrally-planned economy (centrally-planned socialism), or a public-enterprise market economy (market socialism).
In both the former USSR as well as the former Yugoslavia, there were no capitalists. But neither society was a worker-run paradise. They both oppressed workers, albeit in different ways since they had different methods of allocation (central planning for the Soviet Union and markets, like in the U.S., in Yugoslavia).
This is far beyond what I can do in a few words, but one of the things that makes parecon different is its method of allocation. Parecon doesn’t rely on markets (which misstate prices on everything, and invariably give rise to a coordinator class, with or without private ownership of the means of production) or central planning (which is inherently authoritarian in theory, and even moreso in practice). Parecon utilizes a new way to allocation resources that it calls participatory planning, or horizontal planning.
The real point is that a classless economy is incompatible with both markets and central planning. And if classlessness is our goal, we need to be clear about that.
For a contribution, anyone can receive printed copies of the newsletter. See the website emal linked to.
Parecon addresses the question of human nature, as I’ve said.
It’s not a collapse of Wall Street. WS may be a bastion of capitalism but capitalism doesn’t need WS to survive. Parecon is supposed to replace capitalism and that ain’t gonna happen any time soon and if and when it does it won’t be overnight. I don’t think the occupiers of Wall Street, Boston, et al are concerned with overthrowing capitalism.
That is very kind, realitychecker.
Thank you.
However, delivery is in November.
Solidarity!
Many of the workers I know don’t have computers and don’t know how to use them. Flyers and papers are very effective.
From Global Revolution …
Interview of a South American who came to Liberty Plaza and a veteran are coming up next.
Monica is from Spain and is on-site to provide translations to English from Italian, Spanish and Portuguese.
Solidarity!
Well, dang. There’s the answer to my question. Thnx.
As PeasantParty said Write a Diary! Then we get to choose whether or not to read it. You keep hijacking threads to talk about this.
Agreed. People just want a seat at the table and to know that this country will not allow the greedy to take from the population with no response. Also, that Wall Street is running the country and the people have no true representation.
I don’t think the left will ever win anything substantive until it is concerned with overthrowing capitalism.
I don’t see victories for single-payer, ending U.S. imperialism, or seriously addressing global warming until the left gets serious about overthrowing capitalism. Again, how was Social Security won? How was Medicare won? Elites were terrified of movements that threatened the very fabric of society. I don’t see such movements developing again at the very least until people get serious about overthrowing capitalism.
OWS is a wonderful, wonderful start. More power to them. I just think more is needed for the movement to grow sufficiently.
I don’t what the exact percentage is (I’m sure someone here does), but if you have an all-white neighborhood and it becomes, say, 5% black (or whatever the actual number is), white people vastly overestimate the number of blacks who have moved in.
I think you’re vastly overestimating my posts. But others may judge.
See Twain at 218. I’m not going to get into a circular argument here with you. We’ve had this discussion and I frankly don’t see anything positive coming from having it again.
Perhaps the first question to answer is this: Do we want a classless economy, yes or no?
There’s no right or wrong answer. It’s a value, and our value can be whatever we like.
Is classlessness one of our values?
But we haven’t addressed the question of classlessness before. I’ve never brought it up here before. I am now, however.
So, is classlessness one of our values? That is, do we want a classless society?
See my 222. I’ll not help you hijack this thread.
Eric, I too am frustrated by your using this thread to spread your ideas of how you would like to see our society and economy work. As other people have said, this needs to be a separate diary and not inserted into whatever thread seems available. I’d like the comments on this thread to pretty much be on the topic of Liveblogging the Occupation of Wall Street. People are letting you know that you’ve exceeded their/my tolerance limits for off topic comments. Would you be willing to stop discussing this subject on these Occupation threads?
Please take this debate to a diary and stop hijacking Kevin’s OccupyWallStreet posts. TYVM. Whether or not your theory has merit, it’s inappropriate to hijack a thread.
By the way, this is my first and last request to you about this. After this I will adopt the attitude of “Don’t feed the ….” and I sincerely hope everyone else will too. This is not intended to be a debating thread for the merits of “a, b, or c” dominated by one person’s favorite concept of a good way to organize society. It’s intended to be a liveblog of the occupation.
Kevin posted the screen shots that show NYT changing the narrative of the 700 arrests yesterday, but this shows an additional detail. The guy who’s reporting was added after the change is the NYT Police Bureau Chief. Ha!
True? Dunno. Wouldn’t surprise me.
Wrong coast.
As I said, Eric, timing is …
“Things” must coalesce … and minds and hearts must open … thoughts must expand and possibilities, step-by-step, must be embraced and then realized … Rather than speaking of the failures of capitalism, which many may see without recognizing, speak instead of more egalitarian possibility, of economic justice … first.
Get the attention of people with things they understand FROM their own personal experience … and, over time, slowly introduce ideas which others may easily grasp and identify with … and NEVER assume too much.
It has taken a half of a century for “things” to progress as far as they have, less from the success of new ideas than from the failure of the old …
“Things” must “play out” to a certain place, before new ideas, even radical notions, which many here well understand and even appreciate, may be successfully shared with those who have not, already, dared to examine ideas and philosophies considered dangerous, and that is the proper word, to “things”, economically, as they “are”.
Do not give up on your attempts, however, try to shape them differently; for the reactions you receive, here, are from informed and thoughtful humans who HAVE considered more broadley … and most Americans, in particular, have not done so, mostly, to be frank, out of fear, and they need time and more time … to even begin to understand.
DW
Excellent find. What can we do to help that go viral?
Wow.
Tweet the url.
Plymouth Rock, then?
Or, for the international set, The Rock of Gibraltar?
It is discerting that Twitter and FB have colluded as much as they have with opponents of occupywallstreet.
Luddite here. I have no idea how to tweet.
I’ll tweet it if I’m provided a short Tweeting 101 course. Assume I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about the subject.
RT flyingmonkeyair.
Why are they allowed to censor information? I thought passing info was their job. I don’t belong to either one so I don’t understand.
It is in their interests to do so. We must use them as much as we can but we can’t control them. They know, as we do, that should they shut comms off completely we’ll just come up with something else.
No time like the present. *g*
http://twitter.com/#!/
Yes, disconcerting, but not surprizing, ysd. if you recall the comments we shared regarding the influence on NYPD AND NYC of HS and the CIA.
DW
lol. Though the guy holding the “Occupied Wall Street Journal”, in the pic Kevin posted yesterday, was wearing one.
Methinks that those efforts to come up with “something else” as well along, SD, and, perhaps, none too soon?
DW
thanks, sd. i’ve bookmarked it. got a bunch of stuff to do and then plan to get to OccupyAustin today.
I’m going to continue this line of questions because it is relevant to the “network effects” that I see as more determinative than “human nature” (whatever that is) in the development of political processes, which after all are special cases of communications.
Back to Twain:
What exactly is the function of the emergent leader in those self-directed processes that makes their singular leadership, as opposed to group consensus, necessary? And why does the group consent to their taking that role?
What privileges does that leader accrue in taking that role, and what privileges does the rest of the group have over the leader?
How does the emergence of a leaders change the flow of communication in the group?
How does it change the decision-making process?
Just from your experience, not from any theoretical model or vision of alternatives.
Go to twitter.com. Sign up. You don’t need to use your real name, unlike FB. In the white box under the gray “What’s happening?” heading, type in your comment. The gray numbers that descend as you type is a character count. At zero, your tweet stops. Click tweet. That’s it. It’s easier than commenting here.
If you want to reply to another tweet type the @symbol followed by the persons’s twitter name and then type a message and hit tweet.
To join a discussion on a hashtag, add # symbol followed by the name of the discussion eg. #occupywallstreet.
To add a link, copy the url into the box. Links are automatically shortened.
To add someone to your follow list click on their twitter name and the profile will come up (may be two clicks in, but it will clearly say view profile) click on the “follow” box and that person’s tweets will show up in your twitter feed at “home”.
Seriously, it’s as easy as that. Twitter is very, very user friendly and intuitive. Welcome to addictive world of twitter!
Wow! Sorta in your face, isn’t it?
Quite simple, really. Just a new take on early computer messaging before email.
Great question, TD, which everyone should be asking themselves and of each other.
As the notion of “leadership”, of the wise “one”, must be part of the extant mythology our species must now confront … this is, also, a time when new myths of individual responsibility, to life, to Earth, and to the future, including those as yet unborn, even seven generations hence, must be considered …
DW
FB has been persnickity about Anonymous, probably saying Anon is doing illegal things, so they don’t allow Anons to have FB pages. Twitter has been preventing OWS from “trending” In other words, no matter how many tweets go out referencing #occupywallstreet, Twitter will not show that everybody is talking about #occupywallstreet. They did the same thing with #fuckyouwashington.
thanks, i’ve just pasted that into a word doc for later, when i actually go to try it out.
Emergence of leaders changes everything – sometimes it’s a good thing if the leader is a fair, honest and caring person. An example – we elect people to Congress, pay their salaries, and call them leaders (which really no long applies) and then bow and scrape to them. Why? They are employed by us and yet we treat them in the exact opposite way. It makes no sense at all to me. WE are the ones at fault because we make the assumption they have suddenly become wise when actually they are the guy who owned a car dealership in your hometown and was your neighbor until s/he went to DC and forgot where he came from.
Well said.
There’s a story of a number of Wobblies who went to support another group of workers. They went by boat and were met at the dock by the sheriff and his men. When asked who the leaders were the Wobblies, as one voice, replied, “We are all leaders!” The sheriff’s men opened fire, killing some of the Wobblies. I’ll have to look it up for more details.
NYPD arrests 700 #OccupyWallStreet protesters during Brooklyn Bridge March
But what is it that the leader does that the group consensus could not do?
Tarheel,
I appreciate your discussion. I also greatly appreciate all the time you have volunteered to put in here at Kevin’s live blog. You have done some great work.
On leaders, they have to be reminded that they are representative of a group and speak for the group on the groups terms. When it is apparent that a leader needs to be nominated for the occupations, I’m sure they will do it.
On the Eric issue, I’ll just share a response to me that he made yesterday:
Jobs and the First Amendment
IOW, leaders have privilege because they are the designated targets.
Excellent, SD.
If by “classlessness” you mean that we never make any distinctions among people as to intelligence, effort, or results achieved, then no, I don’t want a classless society. Because that can’t and won’t work. We don’t need classlessness, we just need a fairer and more rational balance among the classes.
More of those “patterns” evidencing a fundamental disdain of the Rule of Law by the Executive… which the Judiciary have both a moral and Constitutional obligation to recognize and respond appropriately to.
Right now, the question for the Judiciary “branch” of NY state, is this; Does the NYPD serve “the people” of the City of New York, or the “interests” of Wall Street, Jamie Dimon or the needs and responsibilities of “justice”?
DW
Cop tells marchers they’ll be arrested if they get on bridge.
Since a lot of people don’t like responsibility, the leader is supposed to be willing to take it. Supposed is the operative word. Our “leaders” in DC take no responsibility for anything. If the leader is honest and effective, it works out well, if not, it’s a mess. The group should make the decisions together but without someone to drive the car, it never moves.
Second that emotion.
Shorter DW (and rc): Don’t ejaculate prematurely lol.
The Everett Massacre
My question goes back to “Why are there leaders in the first place?” And why do other folks consent to obeying them? Why would the occupation have to nominate a leader? What functions necessitate a leader?
And the follow-on is, if you wanted to continue a leaderless group, how would you handle those functions that a leader does through division of responsibilities so that privilege is checked? One method that is often used in practice is rotation of people through roles.
I hope to die before tweeting is ever forced upon me. But, that’s just me.
Posted on FB, thanks.
Nothing new. FBI singled out the leaders of the Black Panthers, anti-war groups, etc and either killed them or falsely charged them, draining the resources of the orgs to pay for legal expenses. Same is true today.
Short, and to the point …
(You must NOT make me laugh when I have a drink in my hand, rc, as it takes too long (ahem!) to clean up the eruption … as well, it upsets the cats and makes the dog bark … LMAO)
;~DW
What does the metaphor “driving the car” mean? Specifically if you were instructing me on how do to do those functions of leadership, what would you be telling me to do?
From Global Revolution live stream …
Request for cold weather donations of blankets, sleeping bags, outdoor clothing and water resistant foot wear.
About 1,000 people at Liberty Park, Manhattan. Drug and alcohol free zone by consensus of the General Assembly.
Yes. I have served on hundreds of committees in my life. I can tell you from experience the best and most representative groups have strict term laws. Those are the groups that accomplish the most and represent better than the ego driven ones that have longer terms or President for life styles of make up.
Check out the video link at 266. It’s an important element in the story and it clearly shows 1 cop with a megaphone telling the marchers they will be arrested if they take the bridge.
Thank you, SD, I appreciate that history.
DW
But you made into an organizational principle so just one member of the group was killed instead of the whole group?
Isn’t there some survival value (for the idea) in that?
I’m well aware of that history. The tactical question is how to work around it.
My reaction: A leader’s legitimacy decreases in direct proportion to the amount of privilege the leader expects/demands to attach to that leadership. The legitimate essence of a good leader is about service to the group, not privileged status. And, emergence of a leader inevitably tends to natrow the menu that will be considered in the “marketplace of ideas,” and that may or may not be a good thing, depending entirely on how good the leader is at focusing on the best ideas and recognizing the fallibility of poor ones. But, one should never expect any one mind to perform that winnowing process perfectly.
Thank You!
I had already been thinking about fleece or Polar jackets. Heck, even fleece yardage with needles and thread.
It has been my experience, especially working political campaigns, that leaders happen in two ways. The aggressive type pushes his or her way to the front, actually does nothing but takes credit for the work of others. The second way is that natural leaders evolve out of the group – much like jury foreman are chosen. Real leaders don’t bully – they encourage.
Why is any leader legitimate? Why is there the immediate assumption that there must be a leader? Why is there that deference on more than an interaction by interaction basis?
Calibrating that, my understanding is that the court ruling was that they could use nets, but they can’t back them up with solid barricades.
Thumbs up on the sewing notions.
At St Pete for Peace decisions are made by all who show up at the meetings. No single person “leads” although each have a task to perform that they volunteer for. Small group, works well for us.
For now in regards to the occupations I feel the leaderless state is the best way to go.
Until Washington wishes to speak to leadership, then I would propose one leader for every ten occupiers. Yes, that is a lot of leadership, but it would show more representation from around the country.
Tweeted & blog-posted as well.
So the main function of a leaders is to be a prod or a nag for what the group has decided to do. And to repeat the message that the group is perfectly capable of doing what it intends to do–even in the face of hardship.
Off of the jury foreman example, are you saying that “don’t want the responsibility” means “don’t want the blame”, or “don’t want to speak publicly in the court”, or what?
How about one of those lil handheld sewing machines from teevee? Cold fingers aren’t very nimble.
Very well-honed and well-spoken truth, Twain.
Experience confirms.
DW
Yes, that’s the really hard part. It’s human nature to hope the leader, usually chosen for popularity reasons, has some special vision, just as we long to beleive in a deity that will nurture us as our parents should have. But nobody’s vision is THAT special at all times. So, maybe the best to be hoped is that the leader has good vision, allows others to help formulate that vision, and, most importantly, has a talent for knowing when to cut off debate and galvanize the group into action on a single option or set of options. Perfection, unfortunately, will never be an option when dealing with human beings.
Wool ponchos aren’t cheap any more but will keep ya warm when wet. Easily made from a wool blanket.
Excellent example of my fundamental question, which is “Why are leaders necessary at all?”
Now, you say it’s a small group. What happens if the size increases by an order of magnitude (tenfold)? Would a leader be necessary then, and why?
Great Idea!
Also, I wish I could buy several bolts of Polar Tec or Fleece to send to them. I also wish I could encourage the local PortaJohn companies to deliver the ones with sinks in them to Liberty Park for one or two days a week.
Yes, that is the only sense in which it would be legitimate to attach privilege to leadership, because it serves the overall interest of the group to afford them some extra protection. Of course, the trappings of privileged leadership can also be used to identify them as targets.
Another Excellent Idea! Heck, they could make capes and all look like Medieval Peasants then. (grins)
Taking a break now. Gotta get stuff done before Book Salon.
Ah, TD, you’re leading us “somewhere” … step by step, and as you’ve demostrated capacity and concern beyond yourself and your own “ends”, you have us following along, rather like Socrates at the Agora, one suspects …
;~DW
If you were going to have a march, a leader would be necessary if for no other reason than to “blow the starting whistle.” Otherwise everyone would be wandering around like lost souls. A STOP sign might also be a good idea.
Might see ya there, PP.
DW
Thank you, downloading it now.
Nap time – or so the dog tells me. BBL
And that all comes down to individual personal integrity, which has become such a rare commodity in our greed-and-power driven society. It took us a while to have that basic value undermined so thoroughly, and it will take an extended process to reverse that.
Likely so, rc, likely so …
Hopefully, we might witness the opportunity of such “process” beginning … soon?
DW
NYPD Arrests 700 #OccupyWallStreet Protesters On The Brooklyn Bridge
The clearest video yet of the action of the police on the Brooklyn Bridge.
Notice the activities of the folks in the bright green hats. Might they be National Lawyers Guild or other legal observers?
And notice the interaction that the police have with a photographer ahead of the marchers.
No, the meetings would be longer, louder and we’d hafta find another place to have them. Got the courtyard of a nice little coffee shop now. Most are anarchists so a “leaders” concept ain’t gonna cut it. *g*
It strikes me that a General Assembly resembles two time tested institutions that have roots in our country back to its beginnings.
In a Quaker Meeting, there is no leader. Everyone is free to say whatever they like at any moment that no one else is speaking.
In a classic New England Town Meeting, there is a predetermined agenda (the “Warrant”) and a Moderator (elected position), but citizens are allowed full opportunity to speak on the warrant articles and then directly vote for adoption. Sadly, town meetings appear to be dying out.
I apologize abjectly and profusely for making you laugh, DW, and for the mess that I caused. I promise to never make you laugh again (fingers surreptitiously crossed).
I know better than to demand a reciprocal promise from you, though . . .
Then you’d have to ship some decorative roping with small tassels for trim.
Time to annotate my postings. I hate when that happens.
But when I post a correction, I leave the original text up, with an explanation. Unlike, apparently, the NYT…
As MLK said, FILL. THE. JAIL$!
Leadership:
Creating conditions for group/team members to achieve a common goal because they want to.
Hah! You may assault me funny bone whenever the mood doth stike … I’m merely going to set my glass or mug down … BEFORE I subject myself to your kind ministrations, rc.
;~DW
I would definitely second the idea of limited terms for the leader, and a constant grooming of new people to rotate into that role, as well as other important roles to serve the group. Fresh blood, if well-mentored, is good blood.
Direct Action
I’m leading you to a place where the trap door opens underneath all our theories about how politics works.
When I say I don’t have the answers, I mean it. But I’ve seen enough and thought enough about to know where one of the big intellectual mysteries is. And that is with the whole nexus of ideas about “a leader”.
My pet theory at the moment is that it has to do with the personal cost in attention in having to deal with many-to-many communications within a group, which grows factorially as the group grows. Think of a global general assembly with many-to-many relationships withing 7 billion people. The internet, in principle, technologically has to handle that–even if it never actually happens. Now think that instead of in a park, you have 7 billion video chat windows open on your screen. How would you focus? Some chat windows begin to get more of your attention than others. As this evolves, some of the chat windows are getting lots more of everyone’s attention than others. And rightly or wrongly, privilege and deference begin be associated to those chats. There are a lot of holes in this; you’ll probably find them.
The second part is that the person willing to risk action first generally gets treated as a leader because now there is a less confusion about what could be done.
If these are true, anyone committed to keeping leaderless groups has to invent a method that enables focused interactions in very large groups and one that does not privilege first actors.
Like I said, a pet theory. Still woefully inadequate.
True leadership – as opposed to mere management – is more analogous to facilitation and inspiration than to “nagging” or “prodding,” which can be effective management tools if needed for expediency (though probably wisely not deployed as a first choice!).
Well by golly, you’re ready for a GA on the DC mall. Very loud, very long, and enough space for 2-2.5 million.
I don’t think this clip proves anything. Location and chronology are unclear, and obviously the cop was being as quiet as he could be with that bullhorn. As to those chanting, “Take the bridge,” I think some did get over-exuberant, but that was not the plan for the march, as far as anything I’ve seen. In a crowd of thousands, you can’t hold all responsible for every act by the most radical. What seems to be beyond dispute is that the NYPD deliberately deployed their resources to close the bridge down, and are now trying to put all the blame for that on the marchers. Just normal blame game dynamics on display.
Does this mean tomorrow is dress like a zombie day? WOOT!
It’s hard for me to envision a system involving a per se requirement for leaderless groups. The styles of leadership and management would ideally depend on various missions and conditions; and styles can modify and change along with changing conditions.
[I could quibble with the terminology "leaderless," preferring to view the group(s) in question as "group-led."]
So why should a facilitator or inspirer be privileged above others in the group on a continual basis. I get that the group has to allow the facilitator to control the process in order to ensure broad participation. And the inspirer is welcome when inspiration is needed. But how did these get to be considered talents instead of skills? Why is it that there is an assumption of helplessness on the part of the majority of members of most groups?
I haven’t found anything about specific investments, relating to wall street but this is what I have found so far:
NY State (which approves city pensions although the Mayor/City make proposals) is letting a “millionaire’s” tax expire this year (two extra tax brackets for those making over $200k and $500k) while looking to reduce NYS and NYC pensions. Bloomberg wants to reduce pension benefits for new hires.
In 1968 the NYC police (and fire) unions gave the city $75 million to invest in the stock market for their pensions, and retirees got a yearly payment from these monies based on the market in addition to their regular monthly pension. In 1988 the unions and City agreed on a set amount of $12,000 per year per retiree instead of a fluctuating amount based on stock market. Supposedly this principal has netted the City several billion dollars over the years, but in any case as usual these are benefits that have been negotiated with the city over this time. I believe it’s because of the stock market that the fund is in trouble, although I haven’t confirmed that. In any case the City’s budget is in trouble, and Bloomberg wants to take it away completely for new employees, current employees and current retirees. Because pensioners receive this money at the end of the year, Bloomberg insists on calling it a “Christmas bonus” instead of a yearly payment they’ve been promised, and said “Do we want to send out Christmas bonuses or have more teachers?”
I’m not sure where this proposal re $12,000 is at; as far as I understand because it’s a separate amount it’s not dependent on state. Other cuts will come around when state legislature reconvenes in January, or sooner if they call special session. I can research more, especially about wall street connection, and write something up and provide more links.
In the meantime, here’s a chant:
“They say choose teachers or cops.
We say Wall Street greed must stop.”
link
link
This aligns with the idea that on the evolutionary scale, our development as a “successful” species focused on smaller, hunter/gatherer groups of a few hundred or less. Our more recent forays into high-population civilization crash into this innate conditioning. We’re more successful when we “know everyone” in our group.
I would like to suggest that if we decouple the idea of authority from the idea of leadership, we go a long way towards solving this problem. Authority worship, even within ourselves (i.e., holding rigid ideology), births a lot of trouble.
Great beginning, however, TD, and most important. Your example comports with experience and your extended “consider” is powerfully instructive.
“Good” leadership, “leads” to good beginnings, but the “assumption” of power and “prerogatives” of initiation, both of ideas and future “member/followers” is the danger … as corruption is the step-child of privilege and, too soon, “maintaining position” becomes the primary “purpose” of leadership.
Only a group which agrees, up front, consciously and continuously, upon “limits” to INDIVIDUAL powers and privileges might, possibly preserve the idea AND the practice of shared decision-making.
I consider your raising of the issue, both timely and very wise.
Let the discussion (and cussing) continue!
DW
I agree. And there was a police officer with a megaphone saying there would be arrests. Marchers in the front knew what would happen. Just sayin what the facts are.
Yes, an unfortunate breakdown in discipline, well-exploited (probably intentionally) by the NYPD. Where was the “mic check” from the front folks to inform the group?
Different styles for different situations. Dakotas had war leaders and peace leaders.
So how is that different than leading with a functional responsibility–health leaders on issues of health and in time of pandemic, security leaders under attack, legal advocates when under attack from the legal system?
I’m beginning to think the term is panarchy (in its general meaning). “Groupied” has to many associations with rock singers.
“In the twentieth century the term was re-coined separately by scholars in international relations to describe the notion of global governance and then by systems theorists to describe non-hierarchical organizing theories.” (Wikipedia)
But I’ve gone too deep in the weeds here.
Or what do you do after you’ve occupied everything?
There does not need to be a leader if all in the group are of exactly the same mind. But, when does that ever happen? I can envision a group of non-identical but more-or-less equally capable individuals each doing what they think is best, but then you lose whatever efficiency could be achievable with a single overarching plan, and serendipity plays a larger role. I’ve spent a lot of time in my life wrestling with the question of “where does a good idea, or a hypothesis worthy of testing, come from?” Leaders should have good ability in that area, to originate the idea or to recognize when another has offered one, and a little Zen training might be helpful. Robert Pirsig explored this in some depth in his classic Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It’s hard to reduce the concept to a totally cut-and-dried version, but certainly if one is to confer leadership on anyone, it would be best if that person had some cognizable ability in originating or recognizing merit in ideas. I can also see the merit in deferring, as to a particular transaction, to the group member with the most recognized expertise in that type of transaction. (Something we do here all the time, informally.)
Yes!! Please research some more and add links.
The idea for a bullet point list of facts relating to NYPD pensions raided by Wall Street was the idea of the mighty eCAHN, who is willing to read over any list that is produced. My plan was to find a way to get paper leaflets for marchers to hand out to police. IMO passing a printable to the media team linked upthread would probably be most effective.
Thanks for the research.
Is that a talent or a skill?
Veteran
I have not and would not argue that “a facilitator or inspirer be privileged above others in the group on a continual basis” per se.
If I understand your question correctly: I suspect that what we often observe are behavioral phenomena related to a human tendency to want to bestow elevated status in the form of perks or privileges. Why this happens is complicated, probably related variously to things like: evolutionary advantages in organizing tribal subsistence tasks, family parent-child dynamics, impulses to express thanks and recognition for performance, and a host of other factors. These impulses, like others, can and should be resisted – or at least managed/moderated.
Simultaneously, in some cases it is recognized that a leader might need some time, space, and rest in isolation in order to concentrate on rigors of planning and organizing. The distance formed as a result can create a sense of awe and mystery. Sometimes this mystery and distance is actually useful (and might be why fraternization among officers and enlisted is discouraged in the military).
What does “taking responsibility” really mean? Making good the damage done? Committing seppuku? Anything less really does little to advance the interests of the group. In fact, putting the responsibility on any one person is really a form of scapegoating, isn’t it? It’s a conundrum.
As well as limiting “authority”, if our species is to survive, it must also reasonably limit the “power” and the “wealth” accumulation which, in current thinking affords “authority” its legitimacy, Petro.
As you imply, the “tribal” model, especially when divorced from the tribal truth that “expertise” and “capacity” are spread throughout the tribe, giving rise to the accepted notion that “authority” is invested with ALL expertise and capacity … thereby reducing “followers” to simple “consumers” or mere “clients”.
Your idea of de-coupling those “ideas” might allow a more honest and useful sense of community realtionships, however large the community, a species, even, to develop.
Very excellent thoughts, indeed.
DW
Nice
Aloha, Ya’ll…! *g*
Anybody see these great RT interviews today…?
NYPD Gone Wild
And…
Occupy Wall Street Continues
Thanks, DW. My thinking on authority, and its central role in psychological pathology, is shaped by long exposure to the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti.
That’s right. Don’t drink and blog.
Ah yes, I recall that, Petro, and he influenced my thinking very much, as well, especailly as regards the notion of what “society” actually is.
Is your “background” in psychology, btw?
Once upon a time, for a time, it was my “profession”.
DW
Your theory is interesting, and none of us have the answers yet, obviously, but this is a good way to conduct an inquiry. You seem to emphasize the means of communicating, which is important. I would choose some additional emphasis on where do the good ideas come from that deserve to get communicated. Note that we are naturally allowing you to lead this discussion so far because we have seen demonstrations of your expertise , experience, and character, not because you are first or loudest. We are somehow recognizing the element of quality in what you offer. I would think that would be the most important thing of all.
I am an auto-didact, but you would find me remarkably adept and well-versed in that discipline, if I may so humbly state.
Very cool.
Tolerating a geezer, are you? Time affects all three of those.
Monks at Starbucks – Liberty Plaza
Lot of autodidacts here. I’m one, eCAHN’s another, right off the top of me head.
It shows.
Occupy Chicago livestream (UStream)
I’m one in a lot of subjects
LS-Chicago: Folks honking in support.
*heh* I’m a softie for our Foreign Policy…!
Thanks for your efforts. Please see my #147 above for a likely path to the Wall Street connection. I would wager that fraudulently rated and marketed “AAA” mortgage backed securities played a significant role. They were a great way to get at the money of regular people.
This relates to feelings within this group – along with empirical evidence – that led us to decide that TD is a worthy leader in this inquiry.
There are surely things that happen in our collective unconscious that drive a lot of the impulses we’ve discussed today. Arguably, our collective unconscious does not always serve us optimally; following it is often a gamble.
And sometimes, especially when stakes are high and costs/challenges/risks can’t be mitigated in advance, it is necessary to gamble.
What I’m implying/inferring is that the weak-voiced cop may have been placed there as a CYA for the NYPD, but was never meant to actually divert the marchers. Balance his presence against all the cop shepherds who are seen leading the way. One of those images must be misleading.
I would you listen to the discussion going on the Occupy Chicago livestream. Excellent introduction to how you talk with passersby.
Well, that’s a good question. Do we even know for sure thaat those “undisciplined” marchers in front were not provocateurs????
Heh. Not too deep, but maybe just enough for today.
You’ve set a number of pots to simmering.
Yes, I think you are right abut the CYA. Still…the first few marchers *did* know that they would be arrested.
Not a whole lot happening on LS or Twitter list. Had to entertain folks somehow. You’d hate my singing.
Some of each, and some of both. Some is innate, some is teachable. I believe.
Believe me, I so want to lay this all on the authorities but, two things:
1) Occam’s Razor
2) This movement has achieved so many remarkable successes that I’d be willing to concede one little mistake.
(I don’t consider civil-disobedience a mistake, either, but I’m just thinking within the stated parameters of this #occupation.)
Wait, what? They got Stiglitz?
LS-Chicago Drumming
I am not well known for tolerating, alas. I am pretty good at appreciating quality in people, things, and ideas. You may be a geezer, but you’re a damn good geezer, IMO.
allisonkilkenny allisonkilkenny
RT @JAMyerson: Woo! Joseph Stieglitz is here! #NobelLaureatesOccupyWallSt #OccupyWallStreet
5 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
They got Stieglitz!
No hair on your palms from that, I hope?
No, but economics drives me fuckin’ nuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5zCqHnd_pY
NBC on scene – NYC
What, some celebrity call ‘em and say they were goin’ down to peep the freaks?
I report; you decide.
I really like having you here. What you say resonates with me. I’m a lawyer from long ago, and primarily a stock futures trader now. So, as you would imagine, I never stop gnawing on all the interrelated issues of info processing, analysis, and randomness and risk. And the need to get the right result no matter which of those gets emphasized at any given moment. I hope we’ll be seeing a lot more of you. This is a very interesting and important discussion we’re having, and will doubtless go on for quite some time before we arrive at all the perfect answers. (A wee bit of self-snark there.)
It’s probably the evening weather report. Looks a little wet out.
What if they were provocateurs, or even newcomers? Something has to explain their failure to communicate the cop’s warning to the group behind them.
LOL. Can you still dance?
I’m not excluding the possibility that our side screwed up. Just pointing out that there are clear inconsistencies regardless of which of the two versions you adopt. So, best to be agnostic for the moment, perhaps?Overall, I’m still going to be on the same side regardless.
I have no doubt of that, Petro. The brilliantly self-educated are often less-hobbled by cant and the professional deference, a form of close-mindedness, which often results from “professional” cults of personality and “philosophy”, and therefore are more capable of both original thought and genuine contribution to such “fields” as might catch their interests and attention. As well as fashioning overarching understandings not limited by the pitfalls of dreary and enforced “specialization”.
DW
I don’t discount the possibility. The guy with the star tat on his back was in the up close arrest video on the bridge, and he did seem more assertive than the others.
ICX Technologies Surveillance Command Tower
Command tower is still up. Looks like it’s provided to NYPD by ICX (not sure who icx is)
Provided as in “sold to”.
I’m sure we’ll learn more in coming days. Just not from the lamestream media, who have already shown they are more dedicated to narrative than to detail. Good catch on the tattoo guy, I missed that.
I can vote with my feet.
I will be delighted if provocateurs are exposed. I’m not sure if such actors need be introduced, though. Sometimes the dark delight of defying authority is all it takes. ‘Tis for me.
And *there* is the DHS connection.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/icx-technologies-awarded-safety-act-designation-by-department-of-homeland-security-57919307.html
My mother is trained in the field (specialized in juvenile sex offenders). We’ve had more than a few deconstructive knock-downs over the years! Gratifying for both parties.
Occupy Chicago – Pictures
Good pictures. Thanks.
Why it resonates:
House is Gone but the Debt Lives On
I do believe the Zombie Bankers meme is going to have an effect.
American Freedom Fighters
Patriots
Hire Teachers and Cops
Lay off Bankers and Ceo’s
Bonus pay for First Responders
Jail for Bankers
“We won’t allow what went on in London to go on”
– but wait, I thought what happened in London was all about lazy, spoiled, anti-social youths smashing things for the fun of it and because they wanted to steal a new pair of trainers????
FOX covering Vegas, CBC at Vancouver.
Thanks for the help. If I master it you may be inundated.
Undestood. And, being from NYC, I can attest that every public event attracts a fair number of loose cannons.
Hey! I resemble that remark!
(LOL)
Really? That’s amazing.
Loose cannons is insulting to female cannons.
Wow!
The way I read it, they have several product lines. This particular thing in the press release is an explosives detector.
One main thing that they seem to do is night vision. This observation platform looks like something that might be used in the “virtual border fence”. A high tech version of the tower at the corner of a prison yard.
You have to figure that the NYPD and DHS work closely, though, if only because a lot of the property that DHS thinks might be an attack target is located in NYC.
Just coming back in. I scanned over the comments and see that Stiglitz is there! WHOOP!
Now, has anyone seen those Marines in uniform yet?
Really!
We had our first GA here in OKC Friday, 130 people attended which I thought was a pretty good showing (considering that it’s a very red area).
Discouraging that most of them seemed to want a simple, direct demand. I tried to discourage that but I’m not sure I made much headway. Most appeared to buy into many of the corporate media memes.
Well, it’s a start.
KFAQ: Occupy Tulsa General Assembly Meeting 10/1
Me, too.
Not “touching” that one lol.
Yes. There has been some discussion about whether the police wanted the marchers to get on the bridge yesterday. I noted that shutting down public transportation was a tactic used by SF BART, who was working with DHS, in San Francisco recently. Protesters were blamed for it and commuters were pissed. I wondered if DHS was advising NYPD because the same thing happened with closing down the bridge and basically blaming the protesters.
That they do. They get the most Federal dollars and DHS support for terra. As a matter of fact the lowering of those Fed dollars sent NY’ers in a tailspin a few years back.
OK, it’s a FB count.
Edit: So it looks like we’re doing really well, 130 was an actual head count in OKC.
NY assembly meeting going on now. Hard to hear.
Occupy Durham (NC) pic
Amazing news…! Tulsa has to be the Belt Buckle of the Evangelical ‘Bible Belt’…! Astounding, indeed…!
Another Occupy Durham pic
MayDaze @ 413
Excellent start — go OKC !!!
“Occupy Wall St. protest to march into Canada” (CBC, Oct. 2, 2011)
“Bill O’Reilly And Sean Hannity Send Film Crews To Occupy Wall Street Protests” (Mediaite.Com, Oct. 1, 2011)
OT– Sunday just wouldn’t be complete without a CNN appearance from the Chenus Dickius and his mini-me. EmptyWheel reports (Oct. 2, 2011):
Very interesting theory. I like it. Particularly if you add a provocateur or two yelling “take the bridge”.
Remember the one about the WTC worker on his way home grousing about “F’n hippies” keeping him from getting where he was going. A way to turn public opinion against the effort when by pure economics they would otherwise be on the same end of the rope.
The more pilots and Marines we have there, the less the “F’n hippies” works.
The People’s Mic is not working too good tonight.
It’s this ICX.
Guardian article on the bridge incident gives both sides of the entrapment debate.
NEEDS:
Boots, sleeping bags, folding chairs, food and water.
No Laundry Mat so need somebody to take a bag of laundry and do it for them.
From Global Revolution live stream …
Brief interview. Shorter Jody: Get off your couch. Shows sign: “Make Love Not War”
Occupy Asheville pic
A good old fashioned ‘Love-in’ would be most apropo…!
I think I should make one thing clear – provocateur issue aside – to both you and YSD. I absolutely believe that the NYPD wanted that bridge breach and, gratuitous arrest warning aside, encouraged the act.
They were simply too ready for the arrests for me to believe otherwise.
My only point is that the marchers should probably own the breakdown in discipline that played into their hands.
LS Boston
I think they said the working group would meet at 9 in the morning.
I’m with you on that. The Paddy Wagons were there perched and ready.
LS New York down.
I think the Liberty Park folks are basically doing much of that except without the psychedelic drugs (General Assembly has already ruled that out) hence why the monks may have been checking them out. This groups seem to like drumming/tribal dance over the kirtan forms.
“Mere Gurudev” – Krishna Das sings with Deva Premal
Drumming is more in tune with the heartbeat and connection to Mother Earth. Natural rhythm, uses little energy.
They do like that drum and dance which is why I thought today was perfect for Buffy!
Especially after the bridge kettle yesterday; they needed the spirit and I am sending it via YouTube!
Regarding the discussion about leadership –
There are benefits to having a leader in a group, such as agile decision making (no need to debate and reach consensus or even majority, no confusion over conflicting orders), comparative advantage (someone with a talent for leadership may serve the group better by leading than by performing other tasks), or superior organization (recognizing and optimizing the use of other people’s talents).
There may also be value in, say, giving visionaries the human resources to realize their vision; consider Steve Jobs, for instance. (Whether you like him or not, you have to admit that he had a tremendous effect on Apple after his return, and on personal computing generally.)
To switch gears a little… My own perspective on group leadership has always been that a group leader is merely someone who is granted authority by the group to make decisions. Even at work, I don’t consider my managers to be in any way “above” me or “better” than me simply because they’re managers; I see them more as ordinary workers with administrative responsibilities. Not coincidentally, I’ve been accused of having “problems with authority”. I’ll let you do the math on that one.
I think there is probably a fair amount of anthropology, human behavioral psychology, and game theory that could (and should) be applied to answering the question of what leaders are good for and if we need them, or whether we’d be better off without, and how to constrain their authority to what the group is content to extend them, or how to function effectively without them (especially in groups larger than human social hardwiring is equipped to deal with). I haven’t studied any of those fields, though, so I can’t offer specific suggestions.
Krud. I didn’t get over to occupy SF today. I was going to take photos but something came up. Maybe I can get back over there at the end of this week. I could take the train.
What kinds of decisions typically require agility?
What kinds of activities require a visionary?
Are these talents or learned/experienced skills?
Drat. I *may* be in SF on Wednesday, and if I am I will most definitely drop by OccupySF and check it out.
I hear they are doing good, aside from the police episodes
Sign: Occupy Durham
It was a classic ‘kettling’ maneuver, by NYPD, where else were the Protestors to go…? Over the sides of the Bridge…? *gah*
Occupy Raleigh pic
Occupy Durham – crowd pic
Good For Them! North Carolina has it going on. LOL! In lots of places.
Gee, I don’t remember the Tea Party people hanging around in the dark talking about their issues.
Mountain XPress: Occupy Asheville opens with assembly, march, plans to camp out
(Snort)
They didn’t stand in the rain or sleep on wet concrete either!
Mountan Xpress: Occupy Asheville opens with assembly, march, plans to camp out
This was the take that I had on it, but the NYPD video (Kevin posted it above, I assume you viewed it?) seems to indicate that the marchers made a conscious decision to walk into said trap.
For purposes of integrity, I had to (aagh!) modify my own blog posts on the subject, and I hate doing that.
Ha! Who can read the memos in the dark?
I will never, ever forget the line from a woman in a chaise lounge who was asked about what she thought of a particular issue and her reply was, “I only know what my sister tells me and she lives in Arkansas.”
Livestream NY back up.
My unsolicited .02:
Firefighting and other public safety emergencies like natural/man-made disasters are examples. The resistance to Nazi occupation was another. Of course, devising responses to state/corporate-sponsored attacks against activists (ex., OWS) is yet another. (Also, logistical support operational decisions for OWS.)
1) Building mass movements. Think Ghandi or King. Or ACORN. 2) Leading a nation out of crisis. 3) Or resistance to Nazi occupation.
Can be either or both. Doesn’t matter (except for time constraints for education/development). Only effectiveness matters.
Hell, half of ‘em can’t get it right reading from the talking points in the light.
OMG!
So her entire belief system and political knowledge depended on a sister in another state. What a stump!
I agree with that.
That was from a clip taken, I believe, by Brave New Films of the big Tea Party rally in DeeCee in either 2009 or 10. I was stunned. Had to pick my jaw up off the desk. Box o’ rocks got nothin’ on that lady.
i’ve been out at occupy austin and am just back and catching up with the comments. has anyone noted yet if the protesters who are leading in this clip are the same people who are at the front of the protesters in the clips of the beginning of the arrests?
I’m now getting a database connection error.
Polar fleece yardage and needles and thread. Great thought! They could have a cottage industry going and make some for sale as well.
The guy with the star tatoo on his back was in the close up video of arrests on the bridge, and was one of the earlier arrests. Also, the first hand experience told in a MyFDL diary linked in Kevin’s post says that the mass of people on the bridge were not told they’d be arrested.
http://mountainx.com/article/35891/Occupy-Asheville-opens-with-assembly-march-plans-to-camp-out
Can someone put up this article.
Occupy Charlotte
Yep, they have one group in the Park that is teaching needle crafts such as crochet, etc. I said one day earlier in the week that they have formed their own little city/hamlet within that park. It is really amazing how they have put together groups for medic/first aid, Library, waste management, Food center, and all the centers for a functioning society.
What could that be? Fascinating!
Mountain Xpress–Occupy Asheville opens with assembly – march – plans to camp out
Yep! I will be participating in that one.
My posts are disappearing.
Mountain Xpress: Occupy Asheville opens with assembly, march, plans to camp out
Sign out and then sign back in.
Sure. They’ve been pretty smart and disciplined so far, but, let’s face it, it’s not a trained army And I bet they do know they screwed up, and are working to avoid a repeat.
Mountain Xpress has an article about Occupy Asheville that I can’t seem to post.
One thing about the GA model that I don’t believe has been commented on before. It’s a fully transparent form of participatory democracy, especially with the livestreams. As Christie nee ReddHedd used to say, “Sunshine is the best disinfectant.”
That “screw up” did bring press, though.
Mountain Xpress: Occupy Asheville article
Saw a sign in that video saying: “UN-FUCK THE WORLD”
I did, and it still disappears.
okay, thanks.
Yes it is. The GA was discussed here on Day two or three of the occupation. They have their own little Democracy doing that Park and activities. It is a wonderful thing to observe.
Happened to me once earlier.
OK, since I can’t post this link. Mountain Xpress (mountainx.com) has an article about Occupy Asheville that cause a database error. I now cannot post a link to it. Can someone else post a link to it?
Mountain Xpress has an article on Occupy Asheville that I cannot post.
Hmmm. Usually if you log out, leave the site then return and log back in that stops it.
An ill wind . . . . either brings the press or exudes from the press lol.
What do you think about Occupy Wall Street
–Organizing Upgrade
Series of tweets
That’s excellent!
I’m out for the nite. Tired from all the reading today.
Is this it?
“Occupy Asheville opens with assembly, march, plans to camp out” (<a href="http://www.mountainx.com"MountainX.Com, by David Forbes, Oct. 1, 2011)
Occupy Charlotte – video and YouTube channel
On the kibbutz I lived on in Israel, all the leadership positions rotated. I can’t remember how often. Somewhere between one to three months for the work bosses of particular areas. And people were mentored for the general kibbutz leadership positions. It was a wonderful and amazing system to live in.
Is this it?
Occupy Asheville opens with assembly, march, plans to camp out” (MountainX.Com, by David Forbes, Oct. 1, 2011)
This one?
Occupy Asheville opens with assembly, march, plans to camp out
There are database connections occurring as I am getting them so I can’t post as well (the last two produced were pop-up messages from the FDL server). Is this it?
Occupy Asheville opens with assembly, march, plans to camp out” (MountainX.Com, by David Forbes, Oct. 1, 2011)
the white board said the zombie march is endorsed by new york state family farms. hah.
Whoa, I found the article and tried to post it and the comment disappeared.
One more time
http://www.mountainx.com/article/35891/Occupy-Asheville-opens-with-assembly-march-plans-to-camp-out
I found it and have tried to post it twice and the comment disappeared both times. Gotta be something about that link.
Let’s try their homepage:
http://www.mountainx.com/homepage
Well, that works. The article is in the “hot news” section.
I’m getting database connection errors from FDL. Only 2 out of several produced messages as to the error.
Occupy Asheville opens with assembly, march, plans to camp out” (MountainX.Com, by David Forbes, Oct. 1, 2011)
Ava’s post on the front page tells of her arrest and sheds some light on the question of how the bridge roadway came into play, police “warnings,” etc. Worth a read.
My eyes have had it. Good night all.
Staff member of what?
Will go read that, then I’m bookin’ too (the wine is uncorked.) ‘Night.
that is weird.
No idea.
That’s weird because supposedly you can share to Facebook and a gazillion other social media.
Right vs Left is a charade.
A shadow play.
It’s top vs bottom
with a wall of legislated oppression
sandwiched between.
Me likee.
I’ve watched the video and I think similar faces are in the front line of the group that is stopped on the bridge.
Aw, man, we’re talkin’ about different clips. You’re referring to this weekend and I’m referring to a year or 2 ago in DeeCee. *g*
Sure ya clicked reply on the right comment? *g*
Aloha, KG…! What ya got on tap, when ya hit the ground in DC…?
Me confused, too.
Kevin, do you mean similarly “jaw-dropped” or similarly “stupid?”
mzchief – thank you for the mere gurudev. it’s very beautiful.
It’s 10:22 PM there, could be just a noise complaint.
occupyaustin ga was about 60-70 people. after exhaustive discussion a decision was made about whether to hold a ga tomorow (yes), what time and where.
it was also proposed for discussion on the agenda to appoint peacekeepers who would get non-violence training (as stop the machine is doing) to surround and isolate anyone who gets violent. we never got to most of the agenda.
there were committee reports. childcare is arranged. austin has a no camping ordinance. the police chief suggested to the legal team that since we can’t sleep, we arrange for people to be occupying in shifts. people seemed to think that was a good idea but details weren’t discussed. something is planned for august 6 and various ideas were proposed for what actions to take, but no decisions were made.
the volunteer coordinator has disappeared for now. website is up and running and is due to get much fuller starting tonight.
a working solidarity statement is due up on the website as a living document open for comments and changes.
i got to raise my hands and wiggle them a lot.
i seem to remember seeing yesterday or the day before that the police had set a 10 pm curfew for noise.
“Ya Allah” – Laya Project
Appears they gave the drummer until 11 PM:
La ilaha il allah.
It means “There is no God but God.” Meaning things like money, toys, status, etc aren’t God. Only God is God.
Yes, I do love it. It’s got the rhythm of the desert.
Completely intoxicating.
Certainly is.
Ever notice how the Christianist pols never talk about
IU was told “residents” had been complaining of the noise, which is strange because the area isn’t residential.
IU?
IF they were Christians, they’d be having nightmares about it every day and night of their lives.
Great thread.
Time for me to leap into my tree.
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things
Namaste
I’m gone too. Night night.
Namaste, SD…! *g*
Chiming in late, but I made it. I was there during the incident with the girl/woman on the bike, but was attending the GA for the first time. No one at the GA knew who she was though. Said they’ve seen her around.
As it was reported at the GA, the woman was asked for her ID, she didn’t want to show it and locked her leg to the bike. She put the key under her bra. The cops tried to get it, she fell over, then the details were not specific, but they eventually cut her from the bike.
This is so weird.
I don’t think I meant to respond to your comment. I clicked on the wrong comment and now I cannot find the comment where someone was asking about the people in the front lines of the march.
…Okay, more Occupy Wall Street updates and fun tomorrow. Thanks everyone.
At the GA, the Direct Action committee gave conflicting information about why what occurred on the bridge did. I think they should have gotten the story straight before reporting it to the GA. Seemed like different perspectives. I still think it wasn’t planned, it happened, some were proud of it, others got swept up in it without knowledge. The police may have been part of the problem. Many seemed proud of the arrests, but they did promise to being more forward about tactics so it’s clear to everyone in the future.
Back from work. Will monitor Twitter an hour or two and update notable things.
Updates on the drummer:
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
Whole drum circle is freaking out. “who do you protect and serve?!” Many cops here now. Wall of 21. Chants of #occupywallstreet
1 hour ago via Seesmic
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
Wall of cops leave, seems because they feel like their presence provoked the drum circle into having a shit fit. #occupywallstreet
1 hour ago via Seesmic
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
FYI: far as Ive seen, drummer whos belligerent only here in eve to play drums, frequently belligerent to anyone who speaks to him bout noise
1 hour ago via Seesmic
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
The scene that just unfolded here is exactly the type of scene that will precede the cops rolling through here with force. #occupwallstreet
1 hour ago via Seesmic
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
Drummer inciting crowd. “If they take my drum ill bang on the ground! We do this for them!” Screaming about money + Iraq. #occupywallstreet
1 hour ago via Seesmic
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
Drummer started chant that ended quickly: “We are right, theyre wrong!” Feel like “mic checking” and voting him off the island #occupywallst
1 hour ago via Seesmic
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
After causing huge scene, inciting crowd, being very aggresive, drummer left Zuccotti Park at noise curfew, as per usual. #occupywallstreet
59 minutes ago via Seesmic
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
RT @bori_214: @Newyorkist you sure drummer isnt undercover NYPD?
57 minutes ago via Seesmic
@lacymacauley Lacy MacAuley
Folks at #OCCUPYDC bedding down on sidewalk next to McPherson Square to avoid getting shut down by the po po. #OCCUPYWALLSTREET
50 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone
@nyclu NYCLU
First official statement from #OccupyWallStreet – bit.ly/pQnFAO
22 minutes ago via HootSuite
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/01/1021956/-First-official-statement-from-Occupy-Wall-Street
@OccupyChicago Occupy Chicago
Donation request: Bunson burner, electric stove, and other electric cooking methods. Also, dry erase boards and markers. Thank you.
2 hours ago via Echofon
@OccupyChicago Occupy Chicago
Also, an actual trash can(s).
2 hours ago via Echofon
@Occupy_Boston Occupy Boston
RT THIS! Official plans: Tomorrow at 8 AM we will march from camp to Fox News for a march and protest. All are invited. (1/2)
1 hour ago via web
@DustinSlaughter Dustin M. Slaughter
@AyeshaKazmi Leaving for D.C. On the 5th or 6th
2 hours ago via UberSocial for BlackBerry
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
New York City Police shoot midtown homeless woman dead tonight: abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?sec…
(@nydailynews, @nytimes, reporting woman has died)
6 minutes ago via web
@Uneditedcamera September 17
#occupywallstreet @nycsep17 will change to @uneditedcamera.
2 hours ago via web
@Newyorkist Newyorkist
Video taken when nypd used chain saw to cut bike from girl at #occupywallst earlier, shot from across st: youtu.be/abo1Ni2i3kk
/via @nytjim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abo1Ni2i3kk&feature=youtu.be
@carwinb Alexa D. O’Brien
This gen is not fighting to emancipate itself from the past. Its fighting to emancipate itself from a totalitarian bankrupt future. #usdor
3 minutes ago via web
@OccupyLA #OccupyLA
#OccupyLA RT @OccupyMainSt: Article in LA Times from @OccupyLA, latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/…
5 minutes ago via Echofon
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/protesters-set-up-camp-in-front-of-los-angeles-city-hall.html
Ok I’m more beat than I thought, signing off.
https://twitter.com/#!/kgosztola/take-wall-street
https://twitter.com/#!/OccupyTogether/occupy-together
http://www.correntewire.com/uh_oh_occupywallstreet
NYPD puts up anonymous notices of limits of usage of Zuccotti park.
Think that’s an old notice. Has something changed in regards to them getting OWS out?
No, I don’t think so.
Check out the Occupy Memphis flyer/art!
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=267248443307445&set=o.128627820572100&type=1&theater
Hate to say it, but atm, feels like OWS is a tiny fraction of what it was before the Saturday arrests (I was there last night, slept overnight, still here). Not sure if many of those can or will come back. From the pictures, looks like Boston maybe has more ppl atm. Maybe it’ll pick back up again, but I think I will bail. I need to focus on finding work, one of the reasons I came out was the frustration. Those who can stay out despite the risks, constant police surveillance and poor weather, are heroes. Too bad I didn’t live in NYC.
Being NYC and a public park and a major media event the past week and a half, it’s attracted at least a few difficult people. Some people up all night chatting at full volume, using sexist and homophobic language. Then there was a lady starting loud arguments with everyone who walked by her from about 1-3am when everyone is trying to sleep or be quiet. Heard her say one guy looked like a rapist, that she wanted to be out there, but then she wanted the whole thing shut down, called it a fire hazard, yelled “where’s the permit?” or something like that quite a few times really loud. On top of that it was in the 40′s and windy.
This reminds me of a time when I had to stay in a Red Cross shelter several days due to a storm related power outage. Any sizeable collection of the public is going to contain some people with mental issues. The emergency management people were aware of this and had mental health people available to deal with it.
Something for the Medic committees to consider for the future.
On livestream, it looks like there are still hundreds there. Weekdays are always sleepier than Fri/Sat, too, it seems at Liberty Park.
There might be people who were there for the weekends who might not be there during the week. It seems that it takes only 300-500 to maintain the occupation at the moment.
35,000 UK trade unionists protested against government budget cuts. The protest is in Manchester, where the ruling party of Prime Minister David Cameron opened its annual conference. (Malta Today, Oct. 3, 2011)
OT– “Only one third of 165 million in EU receive treatment for mental disorders” (Malta Today, Oct. 3, 2011)
TWU blasts city for putting handcuffed Occupy Wall Street protesters on buses
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/10/03/2011-10-03_twu_blasts_city.html#ixzz1Zj2wgiOJ
– New York Daily News
Video: “Hundreds ‘occupy’ Raleigh, Durham to echo Wall Street protest” (WRAL.Com, Oct. 3, 2011) Rep. Brad Miller showed up.
#occupyMCR ( http://twitter.com/#occupyMCR )
Video: Thousands hit Manchester [UK] streets to protest austerity cuts (RT.Com, Oct. 2, 2011)
The saw they used is sometimes called a demo-saw. It is a chainsaw engine and frame with a circular blade. The blades come in different types depending on what you want to cut. Depending on what kind of chain that she used, cutting it with bolt cutters may have been impossible. It sounds like they cut through her bike frame rather than the chain, the same way that car thieves cut through a steering wheel rather than The Club. It’s faster, but it wouldn’t have taken all that much longer to just cut through the chain.
OT– Yeah, it’s just double-butted aluminium.
European bankstas upset over how HungarianG handles mortgage foreclosure crisis (Sept. 29, 2011)
Video: Robinhood Tax
Good Morning!
I would like to see that Robinhood Tax instituted in every country!
I’d really like to see the banks payback their bailouts. They have only repaid around 240 Billion of the first 400 Billion that went out.
Buenos dias.
If banking isn’t BitCoin‘d out of existence, it needs to be returned to being just one very dull, small functioning piece of a much improved whole. This system of centralG-backed looting for a vast minority of people is insane and unsustainable.
LS New York is showing them opening the mail and care packages.
Someone sent a flag with all the stars replaced by corporate logos.
The bankstas believe they are entitled to discount everything plus playing in the vulture funds.
TWOOPH!
I think the idea of spreading the Credit Union switch is taking a foot hold. Most people have no idea that when they join one they are shared owners.
A case of fresh Pineapples from Hawaii. A box full of socks, medic supplies, and all good kinmds of stuff coming in today’s mail, Oh, and books, papers, etc for the Library.
NPR on the phone with Jason.
Possible slogans to educate and move to action:
“Own the bank. Be a member of a credit union or building society.”
“Put the union in credit. Be a member of a credit union or building society.”
Amy Goodman come on down!
That’s the flag that should fly at the NYSE. The people need to take back the stars and stripes.
Do you have a link for that? Like to the TARP audit.
Occupy Charlotte, NC sent a care pkg, letter and phone number. They are calling them now.
I do. Can I bring it later? I’m so into the mail haul. They are on the phone with Occupy Charlotte right now.
Well, as of about 9AM there were less than 100 in the park unless hundreds were still sleeping, but I don’t think that was the case by that time. The livestream unfortunately can only show a very limited view, so if it’s near the only crowd of people in the park, you can get the impression the entire park must be full. If you’re walking by the park or through the park, it hardly looks like anybody is left. I think Saturday’s arrests took a big hit on turnout. Last night was busy though, but I have nothing to compare it to (first hand, no way to get a true feel from the livestream given the size of the park).
I met a person on the way there yesterday, asked for directions, he supported the protests but is terrified of arrests and the police surveillance. I can understand. I was nervous to attend as I got closer for that reason, though I wanted to see and be a part of it since it started.
Slogans to be improved upon:
“Own the bank! Become a member of a credit union or building society.”
“Put the union back in credit! Become a member of a credit union or building society.”
Bummer. Glad for the update, though. Maybe you should knock on a few doors on wall street before you leave for a 2 pronged approach. Let ‘em know why you came.
Tarheel,
Here is one list from a reliable source. Notice that some of the Banks like BOA look clean at first glance, however they have shuffled it to the mortgage sections of the inudstry.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/index
Slogans available for improvement:
“Put the union back in credit! Become a owner-member of a credit union or building society.”
“Own the bank! Become a owner-member of a credit union or building society.”
Morning. Here’s a couple links on the front page of Google News.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/10/03/occupy-wall-street-protest-message-becomes-clearer-as-movement-spreads/
http://online.wsj.com/article/AP57cb335e189240dfaa9e71161080fff2.html
and also on a not-directly-related but interesting thing:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nyc-mayor-takes-stand-operatives-trial-14655205
Good stuff. I posted it to my Facebook friends.
Corporate media on the beat
Time to rebuild numbers.
@OccupyWallStNYC #OCCUPYWALLSTREET
This wednesday, #occupywallstreet welcomes #newoccupier @NaomiAKlein. She’ll be talking at Thurs #OpenForum
41 minutes ago via web
Also note the mortgage, bank and builder Implode-O-Meter links: http://ml-implode.com/
Occupy Chicago’s charm offensive.
@OccupyChicago Occupy Chicago
Police on way to HQ (Jackson/LaSalle) don’t panic, be courteous. Thank you! #occupychi #occupywallstreet #occupychicago _”T”
30 minutes ago via Twitter for Android
@OccupyChicago Occupy Chicago
Call them officer, not cop. -”T” (@USAanon)
20 minutes ago via Twitter for Android
@Kristenpinksig Kristen Andrews
@OccupyChicago @USAanon Or Peace Officer, it reminds them of what their role should be.
19 minutes ago via web
@liberatospizza liberatos pizza
or call us at (212) 344-3464 fb.me/1kc5MIuhh
8 minutes ago via Facebook
@jeffrae Jeff Rae
Just realizing now that my ID wasn’t returned to me by the Midtown North precinct —make sure you get your ID back when released.
2 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone
Some of the few still detained were for “not providing ID”… deliberate tactic to make them afraid to be arrested again as PD still has their ID?
@WeOccupyAmerica We Occupy America
I’m not mad at #teaparty for being loud. I’m mad at us for being quiet. @VanJones68 #takeback11
5 minutes ago via UberSocial for BlackBerry
@DustinSlaughter Dustin M. Slaughter
No Time for Sound Bytes Now: #OccupyWallStreet is its Own Message nblo.gs/nVq0l
2 minutes ago via NetworkedBlogs
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/10/03/occupy-wall-street-protest-enters-third-week/
“The protest took a turn toward the creative today, with some organizers urging supporters to dress as “corporate zombies,” in suits and makeup, while munching on Monopoly money.
This afternoon, they plan to protest recent arrests and the use of pepper spray on demonstrators. That protest will take place at City Hall. Protestors will also join union workers demonstrating outside Sotheby’s auction house.”
@dragonfire1024 Jason Safoutin
Lots and lots of people gathering at #libertypark again for #occupywallstreet LIVE livestream.com/globalrevoluti…
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution
“These Cops Were on Our Side”: Report From AlterNet Staffer Arrested on Brooklyn Bridge
- Kristen Gwynne
@AngryBlackLady Imani ABL
“If minorities do not get involved once again your voice will not be heard #occupythehood facebook.com/OccupyTheHood
” via @OccupyTheHood @p2 #TFY
1 Oct via Echofon
From Kristen Gwynne’s article:
Indeed.
More Kristen Gwynne:
@OccupyCincy Occupy Cincinnati
our intentions are to occupy. we are not going away. so if you can’t make it that day, come when you can. we’ll… fb.me/1iz6LfdUF
6 minutes ago via Facebook
I dig it.
Slogan available for improvement:
“Own the bank! Become a owner-member of a credit union or building society.”
And Darcy Burner’s in the park.
Heh. Need video. All politicians must be video especially when their lips are moving.
@jgilliam Jim Gilliam
“if we ask for demands, that means they have the power.” #occupywallstreet #takeback11
2 hours ago via Twitter for Mac
takeback11 seems to be the Twitter feed for the “Take Back the American Dream” conference in DC this week
here’s where you gotta watch the DC PACS & thinktanks try to co-opt the movement?
Not that I’m complaining if OWS energized them and jolts them into further mobilization, as long as they realize OWS will not be brought under their control
@Occupy_Boston Occupy Boston
Nothing is better than walking up to camp, seeing it defiantly propped up amid our skyscrapers. Beautiful. #occupyboston
5 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone
@OccupyChicago Occupy Chicago
we need to move about to truck loads to storage.RT @MaidenSacrifice @Occupychicago SOS Car or Truck needed rig… (cont) deck.ly/~XPghS
3 minutes ago via TweetDeck
I think having that enough gear/ supplies that that is a concern is a great problem to have!
Today’s calendar from nycga.cc:
October 3, 2011 ZOMBIE FLESH MOB ALL DAY. 8AM ONWARD!
October 3, 2011 4:00 am Arrested or brutalized by the NYPD? Stand on the steps of City Hall
October 3, 2011 1:30 pm Arts & Culture: Immigrant-Movement Project Meeting
October 3, 2011 5:30 pm RALLY FOR LOCKED OUT SOTHEBY’S WORKERS
Wikileaks Truck
FYI angry black lady is anti-firebagger. Take her input with that in mind. Not that she’s wrong in that tweet.
“Tent protest in polls: One big unhappy middle class” (972mag.Com, Aug. 3, 2011)
Professor Wolf –the Marxist economist — will be speaking at ows tomorrow per kpfa.
This Dr. Richard D. Wolff, PhD?
This is Dr. David Harvey, PhD’s commentary for some comparison.