Front line of the march on the Brooklyn Bridge (photo: Adrian Kinloch )Over the weekend, Occupy Wall Street held its largest march yet on the streets of lower Manhattan. Somewhere between three and five thousand people participated in the march that ended on the Brooklyn Bridge after the New York Police Department (NYPD) led hundreds to inadvertently commit one of the most powerful acts of civil disobedience in recent American history. Seven hundred or more occupiers were arrested, the largest mass arrest in the country since the protests against the imminent invasion of Iraq.
The past three days saw support grow tremendously, as major unions decided to endorse the occupation. United Steelworkers Union, United Federation of Teachers, 32BJ SEIU, 1199 SEIU, Workers United and the New York Local 1 Transportation Workers Union all came out in support. They and Make the Road New York, New Yorkers Against Budget Cuts and the Alliance for Quality Education now plan to have their members participate in a “Community/Labor March in Solidarity with Occupy Wall Street” on Wednesday at City Hall. New York University (NYU) students have called for a walkout to show solidarity with the occupiers and protest student debt and soaring tuition rates. AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka has spoken in favor of the occupation, as has Van Jones, whose “Rebuilding the Dream” summit is in Washington, DC, this week.
The more well-known players in liberal politics get involved (in addition to celebrities and media figures that have shown support), the more pressure occupiers will feel to speed up the organic General Assembly Process that has been unfolding. It is how decisions about what to do each day and how to organize the space in the park have been made. It is part of what has given the occupation its strength.
The Washington Post’s Ezra Klein is the latest to bluntly ask, “What does ‘Occupy Wall Street’ want?” Klein notes there are now proposals for agendas the occupation should support, which people like Mike Konczal of The Roosevelt Institute and Nicholas Kristof, columnist for the New York Times, have put forward. He suggests the increased support from unions and community organizations (which he calls the “activist left”) will lead to protests being joined to an agenda that already exists.
The absence of demands makes the “Occupy” movement much more potent. So, why do they have to issue any demands yet?
The nature of the occupation’s organization hinges upon the belief that electoral politics have failed to address gross injustices. It rests upon the idea that no piece of legislation will provide the solution to systemic problems in society. It stems from the notion that petitions, calling your representative, going to conferences and holding permitted rallies and marches have been ineffective. Corporate and special interests control the agencies, bureaucracies, institutions and politicians, which participate in the electoral and political process, so much that citizens have virtually no power to influence how dire problems are addressed.
The persistent calls for Occupy Wall Street to make their demands may be understandable but they stem from those in media and in power, who are getting anxious because they do not seem to want to use already established mechanisms to create the change they desire. Instead, the occupiers intend to influence society without urging citizens to go out and vote, without asking people to call their representatives or senators to demand they support a bill, without latching on to a slick, well-funded advocacy campaign designed to survive media spin. They want citizens to no longer be afraid and isolated and go out and find hope in connecting with fellow Americans, who wish to deliberate and further create political space for influencing society. They want a nonviolent uprising to further take shape, something that makes the media and the power elite uncomfortable.
Outside organizations may seek to tie the movement to an agenda they are pushing. Participants in the summit will come from major unions and liberal-leaning institutions that have recently indicated support. The “Take Back the American Dream” summit will likely feature some discussion of Occupy Wall Street yet the summit will not have organizers on the ground participating in the General Assembly process. This is not surprising.
One year ago, liberal-leaning institutions, like the AFL-CIO, American Federation for Teachers, NAACP, SEIU and the Sierra Club, came together and organized a major rally called “One Nation Working Together.” An individual wearing a United Auto Workers Union T-shirt told me he was glad people came out and there was good camaraderie but he was disappointed because they didn’t march. I noted then the organizers had used the word “march,” that they were going to march for jobs, education, immigrant rights, justice and more, but all they did was hold a 4-hour rally at the Lincoln Memorial.
I concluded what they meant by “march” was they were going to “march” on the polls on November 2 to overwhelm the efforts of the Tea Party to take control of Congress (they failed). The rally had an indirect benefit to the politicians and corporations that most opposed the agenda being promoted at the rally. The organizers managed the anger and frustration of people and ensured the rally only discussed issues that were not taboo to the power elite (like war). Organizers made certain the event did not involve any kind of an independent movement that would result in major acts of civil disobedience, direct action or electoral activism outside of the two dominant parties in America, the likelihood that the rally would have any sort of influence on politics was reduced.
The “One Nation Working Together” rally was permitted and controlled. Occupy Wall Street, on the other hand, is spontaneous. And, it is not only a response to the failure of politicians to address injustice and social problems but also the failure of the liberal class to stand firm and not back down in the face of attacks on poor, working class and middle class Americans. It is a symptom of the liberal class’ constant compromising of values and principles to get piecemeal reforms that only further entrench corporate and special interests into society, making it difficult to create change (for example, credit card, financial and health care reform, all passed under President Obama).
Occupiers should not worry about liberal institutions or advocacy organizations hijacking their movement right now. What they should worry about is how they characterize what they are inspiring. For example, the “Take Back the American Dream” campaign is more likely to achieve its agenda because there are people out in the streets demonstrating and creating the climate for people to care about this project. It will likely receive more attention from media and politicians because there is a social movement inspiring discussion about the American economy. There doesn’t need to be a choice between supporting the campaign or an occupation but what people do need to be conscientious of is the fact that conferences, summits, advocacy campaigns, petitions and Internet activism has all been tried and hasn’t had a measurable impact in the past ten years. What hasn’t been tried is the kind of resistance on display in Liberty Park.
The life and the life of other occupations depend on the willingness of others to donate money and supplies. As long as they are receiving support, they do not have a hard deadline for establishing a set of demands. They can bring people together each day and night to discuss what kind of agenda the movement should coalesce behind and they can truly engage in participatory democracy, giving every single person who wants to speak a chance to suggest what Occupy Wall Street should stand for and do next.
They do not need to know how they will impact politics or how the new society they envision will come about. Only politicians who fear having to make a decision between the people and financial interests, which donate to their campaigns and hold them captive, need to know the movement’s demands so they can figure out where they stand. Only commentators, pundits or partisan hacks need to know so they can better spin the movement to fit their agenda or political views. Only targets of the occupiers’ anger, the top 1% and financial corporations, need to know so they can properly allocate resources to stop people from gaining power.
Stating specifically how they intend to make change now will only result in lowered expectations for change. Considering how this can help any set of politicians win in 2012 will mean the movement slowly deflates. Worrying about what this may do to President Barack Obama’s chances for re-election will severely handicap the movement.
American democracy is currently incapable of addressing the country’s biggest problems in society. The occupiers understand this. They are beginning to lay the foundation for the construction of a more equitable society.



162 Comments

A coherent unified message would help, whether one can achieved is a different story. That said, blocking traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge and keeping people from using it to get to their jobs won’t win any friends for the occupiers.
American democracy is currently incapable of addressing the country’s biggest problems in society. The occupiers understand this. They are beginning to lay the foundation for the construction of a more equitable society.
Wait…what? I’d be interested to know what form that “more equitable society” will take and how a gathering of disparate groups without a unified message is laying a foundation for it. The old adage of “Be careful what you wish for….” comes immediately to mind.
So is it really true that Joseph Stiglitz has joined the protest? That’s awesome.
TWU blasts city for putting handcuffed Occupy Wall Street protesters on buses
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/10/03/2011-10-03_twu_blasts_city.html#ixzz1Zjc5VYXD
Thanks.
FYI – This is not a substitute for the live blog. Launching that now.
Their open message is resonating with a great many people who instinctively understand based on their own experience of declining wages, declining savings, declining opportunities and fear for the future. I don’t think their message needs to be honed down to some legislative platform. It’s a social movement, and it’s meant to empower the majority of the people who are being ignored — and to inspire them with an example, with a new sense of democracy, courage, power, equality, and love.
“We are the 99 percent” is a pretty damn great slogan.
Thank you Kevin and Good Morning Pups,
Just some pix from my walk in the park yesterday.
Link
Yeah, that’s Geraldo Rivera in there somewhere. Reminded him of his
Whistleblowing days and said that he could start redeeming himself any time
now. I’m sure he heard me even though he pretended otherwise.
Here come ol flat top
he come groovin up slowly
he got ju ju eyeball
he one holy roller
I think holding off issuing any demands means holding off on clarifying the movement, and the threat that unity could be split by differences of opinion on such demands — especially when it comes to demands about the kinds of crimes and injustice OWS have been highlighting.
Does one ask Congress to reform the banks? Does one make direct demands upon the bankers? Is it folly to put trust in WS to “reform”? Does one call for a pullout from Afghanistan? An end to capital punishment? A rescission of the Patriot Act? A new investigation of 9/11? An end to nuclear power? Disarmament? — How about a new political party?
This stage in the struggle against the evils of American capitalism will not be able to sustain itself forever without making clear what it wants, how it will concretize the “process” it aims to build.
Nothing really progressive ever came about without political struggle, and some of that struggle occurs within a movement as well. Good examples of this abound, even in U.S. history: read about the American revolution disagreements, those within the then revolutionary Republican party during the Civil War and immediately thereafter, or differences within the labor movement in the first half of the 20th century.
I think this is a united movement, a class-based movement, aimed against the 1% and their enablers who are super-exploiting the American people, and the people of the world.
If the day of making demands is put off, then Democratic politicians get to posture with shameless displays of supposed “reform” legislation that doesn’t fix anything, and then blame the GOP when nothing gets done… leading to the election of more Democrats, which puts us back where we started in 2008.
Both political parties are politically bankrupt and can’t speak for the people, the 99%. That is the underlying message of OWS, so far as I can tell. But OWS is not yet a party. It is basically a pressure group. It is a stage.
When you make a revolution, as Danton famously said, one needs audacity, audacity, and then more audacity. He wasn’t talking about rallies. He was talking about making concrete changes in how the society was run. There were demands back then: Abolish the monarchy! A freeze on bread prices! Freeing of political prisoners!
In 21st century America this new protest is like a breath of fresh air in a very stale room, an elemental cry against economic injustice and tyranny. But by historical standards, it has a long way to go to find its legs, and to make its actual impact known. And how it will be known is by what it stands for.
I have been thinking about the “demands” issue and about successful movements. The demands of the civil rights movement boiled down to one demand: end racial discrimination and segregation now. They succeeded in eliminating overt, in your face state-sponsored discrimination. That was encapsulated in the demand: “Freedom now.”
#occupywallstreet comes down to one demand: end financial discrimination and segregation now. That is really what the 1%-99% language is about. The ability of the 1% to discriminate against the 99% because of their income or wealth. The 99% are second class citizens in a supposedly democratic country and sadly in a supposed Democratic Party. (Well that history for Democrats goes back to their founding. FDR was a bit of a fluke.) Isn’t the demand “Freedom Now” all over again?
If participating in an economic forum for the protesters is called “joining the protest”, he has.
Having watched them rather closely, I don’t get the impression that they could fracture over differences of opinion about demands. Their primary problem is simply the sheer, overwhelming number of issues they tend to all agree need fixing.
The movement will grow and evolve over time, especially as October in DC kicks off and then even more as the European October 15 movement gets going. I think boxing themselves in at this point would be foolish.
IMHO I am not sure we would see the growth and energy that we are seeing if this effort was organized around a ‘demand.’ In fact, isn’t that the difference between this and all the other “ineffective” protests that have gone before?
It also occurs to me that any ‘demand’ or ‘leader’ immediately becomes a target for the 1% to take down in one way or another, let alone the (paradoxical? I don’t think so …) lack of cohesion that would ensue.
With a ‘demand, the PTB simply say no, or worse, pretend while promising (lying) to work on it.
And now I am feeling all Sun Tzu and thinking, the bottom up nature of this movement keeps the adversaries from gaining any footing in their response!!!! And isn’t that a wonderful war tactic? I say yes.
When a demand is required for winning, a demand will appear. Winning may require no demand.
We just have to deal with the uncertainty, and keep moving forward.
It’s going to be an eventful week.
)
That’s very good ~ along the lines of what I am thinking too. With a proven historical example!!!!
Please look at my proposal , posted a moment ago on my FDL. I believe we need a way to crank up the ante which is available to all Americans and would take these protest/occupations beyond the merely symbolic .
Oh and thank you Kevin for all you do ! Your an inspiration .
ps. that goes for the rest of you as well !!! You redeem my faith in humanity .
http://my.firedoglake.com/freeman/2011/10/03/engaging-the-rest-of-the-american-population-in-the-occupations/
In that sense, they do have a “demand” but maybe what people who are anxious and impatient want is an agenda and a plan for how to implement that agenda.
Grassroots participation in developing the meaning and message of the movement works to develop commitment. This process ensures people feel personal about the movement and their role in it. This is very powerful. No leader can create this.
Yes.
Your exactly right in this . I was initially concerned by the lack of specifics in the occupation but I now believe it is an incredible strength because it allows a wide rage of grievances to be vented and makes it virtually impossible to oppose .
As someone said on the Brooklyn bridge on Satur D day, ” you can’t arrest an idea “.
So who is going to do the clarifying? Some intellectual or activist elite (even if called a vanguard or avant garde) or millions of people? That is the strategic challenge that a democratic movement faces. If you represent the demands of the 99%, that 99% better be consulted. And that takes time, and a method. For now what we know is that there are a lot of folks angry both at Wall Street for sitting on $3 trillion that could be invested in jobs and at Congress and the President for doing nothing but talk about austerity. The first demand is for them to stop doing what they are doing.
So you are advocating a one day 1-hour slow-walk. Its effectiveness depends on getting millions of workers to do it. Which in a sense is also the problem you are trying to solve. So how do you get from here to there?
And excellent diary, btw. Recommended.
This must get much larger before specific demands are presented IMO and judging fromwhat I am seeing around the country it’s set go up like a wild fire .
What’s needed is a way to bring those around the country from all spectrums of the political aisle, into the fray and by defining specifics we stand to alienate some and become less inclusive.
We should try to educate one another about the why but not make demands for a while .
When people come together to share frustration, they are really just identifying with each other’s disenfranchisement. Our system of government has shown that it represents the 1%ers, not the rest of us. The movement is growing because at some level, almost everyone feels they have no voice and are being marginalized. The “hope” the presididn’t capitalized on 3 years ago, and has been subsequently suspending since, is sprouting again everywhere.
If no demands are ever made, changing the discourse, right in the face of phony corporate media, will have been a monumental achievement.
People who want that to happen quickly need to find a venue that can hold several hundred million. See my comment to Jeff Kaye.
It is going to happen partially anyway. There are too many people afraid to speak out. Too much informal social pressure to conform to certain views. And social pressure with real penalties.
There are Ron Paul supporters organizing local Occupy events. Is that across the political aisle enough for you?
I am trying to imagine a way in which we could allow everyone nationwide to participate without travelling or putting their lifestyles in danger but could become even more effective than the actions now taking place .
We are all in this together , this doesn’t have to take place tomorrow but the planning and conversation should begin immediately .
Call it our equivalent to the nuclear deterrent .
Exactly.
We Are the 99 Percent.
Also, if the end goal is significant change for the better (in multiple areas – and I see no reason why that shouldn’t be the admittedly ambitious end goal) raising widespread awareness and passion is a good shorter-term objective.
I just got off the telephone with a spokesman in the Press Office of the NYCPBA, the union representing police officers in NYC. I asked why the union was not actively supporting the protest and the spokesman got very, very defensive. Seemed he was reaching through the phone line to grab my throat when I offered the story of police “leading” protesters onto the Brooklyn Bridge only to arrest them in mass. I was taken back by his attitude as well as his official comments. Truly remarkable, but not in an enlightened way.
I believe that way is called “Occupy [locality]” See Take the Square’s resources. There are a lot of folks working on the problem you have identified.
This is exactly why spokespeople , leaders and specifics are better left for a time .
I believe that is a possible problem for the Oct. 6th occupation. It may be too well planned in it’s specifics and I have altered myopinion on that idea since I wrote this
Ask yourself why it was that the NYCPBA allowed a 21% pension cut to go unchallenged.
Thank you for sharing you pics!
I really think the Vet with the sign tells a good story.
“Second time I’ve Fought for my Country. First time I’ve seen the enemy”
Or something like that. So much truth in that when we wage war and non-war occupations for oil and spoils while cutting off Americans so they can profit from it.
The greatest speech ever !
The October 6 event is only one of many events going on in DC in October and there is a coalition with OccupyDC and now through Occupy Wall Street with Van Jones’s Rebuild the American Dream.
I see the October 6 event as raising some particular demands without having them be the demands of the Occupy movement. The October 6 demands if successful will have resonance in the country and be brought into consideration in the general assemblies.
The organic movement going on is out there. All of these organizational efforts are trying to unify and give organic form to the movement. The awakening is to the fact that your thoughts and misgivings and hopes and dreams are not crazy. Other people share them.
{ LOL } Democracy for America (DFA) and Bernie Sanders want you to stop what you’re doing & have a telephone townhall on Oct. 6 at 7:30 PM ET. Any takers? I thought so.
“Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.” -The Art of War, Tactical Dispositions 14
A “demand” is a position that is subject to possible defeat.
Watch this from the point of view of seeing where the thinking of “the democratic wing of the democratic party” is. And how much strength they have accrued. For some people it might be a helpful first step.
I happen to agree with your sentiment. Many people have all sorts of issues, some of them don’t even realize that their problems are with Corporatists yet. However, more and more are standing up out of anger and fear because there has been no change for regular Americans in six years or more. If you shave the occupations down to a single issue or two you will alienate too many that will see the issues as being on the wrong side of their own.
No demands, all inclusive occupations are best for now. Besides, Washington has yet to comment or take serious notice.
Great , now I can finally stop taking those drugs the psychologist recommended.
Ezra please watch the remake of the “Lion King!” If you can’t figure it out….retire. Demands? Fiduciary responsibility? Wall Street? The nexus between speculative oil futures, $147.50 p/b oil and the implosion of a housing market, lost jobs? No fraud here? Get real!
Slaves where denied protection of law and used. Guess your to smart to realize it was all about “energy,” and not having to pay for it. The slave’s exploited, uncompensated labor/toils? SO how much money did America waste today out our collective tailpipes? To much economic value squandered. To m “liberty wasted.”
EXACTLY. We are concerned that we don’t look serious if we don’t have a ‘demand,’ but that’s THEIR script, and establishment script.
THANK YOU! I knew it had to be there somewhere! Beautiful quote.
No Clue. They have no clue as to what is coming. Bernie, Bless his little heart, is usually a month or more behind in his advocacy.
Yes!
I have been working on a music video , with original music for the protests over the last 3 days.
I need a long list of facts as to why these actions are needed. I am splitting them into three catagories political/economic, civil liberties and enviromental and hope that within less than 4 minutes anyone listening can glean a host of information as to the why and be better informed.
If anyone is so inclined please offer reasons and facts and post them on the thread I offered on my FDL this morning . The facts will be presented as a rant .
Thanx in advance .
Democracy for America BTW is Howard Dean’s current effort. Nothing whatever to do with Organizing for America the Obama campaign, unless you count having something to do with electoral politics.
I should mention I heard Bernie Sanders speak recently. A barnburner of a list of what’s wrong. The one problem was he was short on how to solve it. There is a reason he has an Independent after his name. I think it is safe to say he does not think either party has what it takes to get out of this.
#worried.
Its the one right before the better-known:
“Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory. ”
Prepare your forces first, wait until you see an opportunity, then take the initiative and fight the enemy on YOUR TERMS not THEIR TERMS.
This is still in the “prepare your forces” stage.
NEW LIVEBLOG just posted.
True.
For now all the PTB need to know and see is that the damn Peasants are revolting!
Surely they are smart enough to understand that. If not, maybe we should all get together and send pitchforks!
The media is playing dumb to keep the rest of the country from seeing. In fact, it really is their mission to keep it quite and black it out to keep others from joining in.
But that would conflict with the MSM narrative that the Tea Party WAS “the peasants revolting” – even though it was spiritually launched with a tirade by a financial reporter on the floor of the NY Stock Exchange, funded by billionaires, and 80% of it’s membership is merely the Religious Right under a new banner.
Enfranchising the disenfranchised. That is the strength of Occupy Wall Street.
You may be right. It will be interesting to see what happens as there is an Occupy DC that has gotten off the ground independent from October 2011.
Is this related to the virtual march on Wall Street I am supposed to be a part of? Leave your mattress in Liberty Park, put your sign down, get out of the street you’re marching down and get online to let others know you are angry and have had enough!
Out of sight, out of mind.
I fully agree with Kevin’s post. We should make clear that we are not about any one specific demand, but rather a set of values. A vision for America, as the politicos like to says. I think it can be summed up as “people before profits.”
I think it is interesting that Occupy DC is separate from the Oct. 6th occupation. The divide in the radical left between the anarchists and the socialists/communists appears to still be alive, but maybe on its last legs. It is very exciting to see unions and liberal groups willing to join up as it is a sign that the old divides are fading and the door is opening for a true mass movement.
You definitely don’t get it, so take another bridge to work.
This was only in the Brooklyn bound direction on a Saturday. I doubt there was a single person on their way to work as very few people commute into Brooklyn and most that do take the subway. Some drivers were inconvenienced certainly, but a surprising number showed their support by waving and honking their horns. Either way, the whole world is now hearing a lot more about OWS as a result.
I should have said: very few people commute into Brooklyn from Manhattan
Sounds good to me. I don’t know a single person who thinks everythings great right now. No one thinks the system is working. Go protest that stuff is messed up. “Fix It” is a legitimate demand everyone understands.
*heh* We were just talking over the weekend about the possibility of a psyops operation to get NYC peeps against OWS. Having one of our trolls spewing about it strenthens the argument that closing the bridge was a deliberate attempt on the part of the police (aided by DHS) to shape public opinion. *adjusts tin foil hat*
He, and we, could all use a healthy dose of humility.
The need to start consolidating something, to clarify something, is a need for instant gratification. It is rooted in fear that something is about to be lost.
We need to be patient,
to have courage,
to hold steady, hold firm.
Let this organic movement unfold. Or not; and pick it back up later. Persistence. Perseverance. Faith.
Respectfully: The occupiers in NYC do not need any advice from Sen. Sanders, or from anyone here.
[Bernie Sanders' best move right now might be simply to pipe down and, with dignity, go stand around with the occupiers. (Maybe buy them some pizza.)]
Bravo. Excellent thing to do.
In case there is any doubt, I agree with you.
I see that I also wasn’t clear that I heard him speak in person.
Just the same, Sen. Sanders is pulling on the correct end of the rope. I think he is as frustrated as anyone that the system is as out of whack as it is in so many ways.
Let the movement unfold.
The chant about “the people united cannot fail” keeps running through my mind.
while I agree the should not state demands they should state what they are not.
Then can tell the MSM they are not the left’s answer to the tea party
They can tell Van jones while they accept his support he does not speak for them and he can give up trying to co-opt
They can tell Chris Mathews nice try but this is not about left vs right BS an illusion that he has made his living on
They can tell wall street we know you fund both sides
they can tell Move on that you are just the mouthpiece for obama and the status quo and we will not let you coopt us either
and they can stand by their mission statement 99% against the !% and all those that carry water for them
Kevin, great post.
The de-centralized nature of the protests is driving the pundits crazy.
Thank you. Those stories are extraordinarily effective. Very saddening.
we all need to tweet our support @occupywall street and let them know we will not let MSM define them as a left vs right movement. We will not let chris mathews lie as to what they are about, and we will not let van jones or move on coopt this movement
Don’t agree.
I wrote this journal today about the ‘free trade’ agreements Obama is preparing to send to Congress for approval (either today or tomorrow). Approximately 80% of the public stands united against more NAFTA type deals and this is consistent polling. Given that Obama is highlighting deals that will act to DEPRESS employment this week and trying to pass the legislation as a jobs bill, it would be prudent to stand up against blatant action occurring against the people right now?
http://my.firedoglake.com/debbierlus/2011/10/03/occupy-wall-street-movement-obama-poised-to-send-free-trade-bills-to-congress-today/
And, corporate personhood? Isn’t that kinda of a no brainer?
It is good people are coming together to express sentiment and I believe the message of the movement is clear. But, if we can’t stand up against blatantly corrupt corporate policies as they move through Congress in real time, we are pretty much lost. The agreements will harm Americans for years to come….the time is now!
From the net.
http://www.facebook.com/winstonweeks
OT but sorta related article about how companies have plundered private pensions over the years to add to their bottom lines.
This subject is very very under reported.
http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/63-63/7668-companies-plunder-and-profit-from-the-nest-eggs-of-american-workers
Ha! What?
Mark this as probably the only time I’m ever going to be on the same page as Ezra Klein.
My biggest problem with this whole “movement” has been fundamentally that it has no meaning, because it’s just discontent. It’s quite literally the real-life version of South Park’s “rabble rabble” parody from so many years ago.
How far do you think Civil Rights, and more recently Gay Rights, would have gotten if it was just a bunch of random people saying, “Hey you! Look here! I’m angry! And I’m not going to make any demands!!!”
It’s just asinine. Being upset that Wall Street runs the show is certainly sensible, but what exactly is that anger supposed to manifest itself as? Eliminating corporate personhood? Transforming corporations into co-ops? Raising taxes on investors and bankers?
When there’s a Gay Rights protest they can say clearly, “I want the same rights as a straight person. Full stop.” You have a benchmark to check against. You have a clear direction to go in. You have something besides just random discord. People around here spend an awful lot of time shitting on the Tea Party protests, but comparatively even those are more coherent than this menagerie, and that’s just sad really.
Winston! A good Facebook friend of mine.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of no demands. As BooRadley put it, it drives the pundits crazy. And it’s so like “us.” We live full, busy lives, not filled with sterile sounds bites, but very rich in their joys & sorrows. Why cave to the conventional wisdom when we are so much wiser.
If you think Occupy Wall Street is just a bunch of angry people, you are mistaken. Anyone who thinks that should be asked if they have been following this growing movement closely at all or if they’ve just decided to chime in with their uninformed opinion.
Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
I was there yesterday too, but youtook a lot more pictures than me. Have you joined the Occupy Wall St. Flickr group?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9240342@N05/sets/72157627803851668/
Also, people who say they need demands or fail need to be asked to produce evidence that this will happen. What we know for a fact is that Occupy Wall Street is in its third week and has only been growing in strength. It may plateau eventually but for now it should continue to do what it has been doing and the organizers should hold true to their principles and values.
Fuck Ezra Klein. That’s a good demand to start with.
You can’t cherry-pick the different time periods of the gay rights movement.
It really started with a bunch of drag queens being pissed off and saying “No” and denying the cops Stonewall raid. And grew and grew.
It was quite a while for the movement to get to specific demands, which we did over time, and do today.
Nope, this is a great time, and its nascence is to be celebrated in my opinion.
I read that statement the day it was released. It’s about as coordinated in message as the Seattle WTO riots were.
Further, I hope and would love to see 9/17 replace 9/11 in the American Lexicon in terms of importance ultimately.
When it grows into a massive beast of a protest without a crystal clear message for how to satisfy the mob you’re then expecting the massive amorphous mob to generate a consensus for what it wants then?
By what method is that going to happen? What happens when factions build? What about when the term-limits people just refuse to go along with the bonuses-cap people? What is the message going to be then?
Celebrating this as a feature seems a bit silly. They’re going to need a message in order to maintain solidarity, and they’re going to need a message in order for that solidarity to force their demands to be met. One way or another…. they’re going to need demands.
People keep likening this to Egypt… the problem is Egyptians had demands!
They are using the General Assembly process. It isn’t infallible but it has kept things organized so far.
When factions build, they will deal with it. When they need to struggle over what demands to favor or not favor, they will. They will engage in participatory democracy and pass some sort of agenda when they are good and ready to pass something and when they feel like their movement has the power to authoritatively say, “Here are our demands.”
They do have a message, Nathan. The occupation is the message. “We are the 99%” is the message. The manifesto passed at the end of last week is the message. They have a message. Maybe not the message you want but a message.
Christ, even at the end of that statement it says to organize to have your voice heard. Well what is that voice saying? How should the levers of power be changed to meet the demands of that voice?
Maybe all these crucially necessary components for directed change will come later?
The message I want? I don’t even know what the message is. The only message that’s visible is that they’re upset that rich people have too much power over everything.
Awesome. I agree. Wealth distribution is a serious problem here. What are they organizing for? To eventually get enough people together to create an American Bastille Day? To discredit representative democracy? To advocate for seizing the banks?
What?
“We are the 99%!!!”
“Great. Well, we’re the 1%, and we want you to go away… what do you want to make that happen?”
“Um… yeah… about that. Can you call us back when we’ve figured that out?”
Maybe the message for now is, we exist and will make your lives very uncomfortable in the future.
Everyone who should get the message will get it. It’s not like we don’t know who is not suffering.
Does anyone know how that initial statement was formed? What was the approval process? Who directed it?
The Wayne Madsen Report (WMR) today threw some rocks at Mayor Bloomberg today and some nicies to the supporting unions.
“October 3-4, 2011 — Bloomberg says “we’ll see” if protests are allowed to continue
New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has thrown down a gauntlet to growing numbers of protesters in New York who have been using the private Zuccotti Park in downtown Manhattan as their rallying place. Bloomberg, on his weekly radio show, said “we’ll see” when asked if protesters woujld be permitted to stay in the park indefinitely. Bloomberg indicated that sanitation laws and other municipal impediments might be used to disperse the protesters from the park.
Several labor unions, including the Steelworkers, Transport Workers, Teamsters, Airline pilots, and others have announced they are joining other protesters in downtown Manhattan this week in the “Occupy Wall Street” movement, which is gaining steam in New York and across the United States and Canada. Over the weekend, New York police officers arrested over 700 protesters after most of them were “kettled” on to the Brooklyn Bridge roadway by police acting as agents provocateurs. The protesters were charged with disrupting traffic.
The “Occupy Wall Street” movement is spreading around the nation, with demonstrations being held in Chicago, Baltimore, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Atlanta, and other cities. On October 6, protesters will take over Freedom Plaza in Washington, DC for an indefinite protest aimed at the federal government. WMR will cover the Washington demonstration.
Bloomberg has always been an enemy of labor. On December 27, 2005, WMR reported: “New York’s GOP mayor Michael Bloomberg, a darling of so-called ‘progressive Democrats’ who think of him as some sort of ‘Republican in name only’ (RINO), called striking Transport Worker’s Union (TWU) leaders and members ‘thugs’ after they walked off their jobs to protest reduction of pension and medical benefits. The late TWU President Michael J. Quill, after being ordered by a judge in 1966 to send his striking New York transit workers back to work after imposing an injunction, told the judge to “drop dead” and was declared in contempt of court and jailed. Quill’s quote: ‘Just as we promised you, the judge can drop dead in his black robes. We will not call off the strike.’ Ironically, Quill died in prison just shy of age 60.” The Transport Workers Union was the first union to announce they were joining the Occupy Wall Street protesters.
It is also noteworthy that Bloomberg has the same sexual harassment and perversion problem as disgraced former International Monetary Fund director Dominique Strauss-Kahn. On October 24, 2006, WMR reported: “New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, while heading up his media empire, consistently made rude and sexist comments around female Bloomberg employees . . . Bloomberg certainly was not liberal when it came to his workers’ rights. According to former Bloomberg employees, the now Mayor once told a pregnant employee who requested maternity leave that she should have ‘killed the fetus.’ A male employee who requested time off to be with his hospitalized ill wife was told he would be fired if he took off. He quit right on the spot. It was Bloomberg’s sexist comments that were his trademark at his Manhattan Bloomberg News media headquarters. He had a spiral staircase installed, reportedly so he could peer up the dresses of female employees. Bloomberg also was known to make crude sexual-related remarks around his female employees.”
Unions supporting Occupy Wall Street
Transport Workers Union
United Federation of Teachers
Service Employees International
Teamsters
United Steel Workers
Air Line Pilots Association
Communication Workers of America
Workers United
AFL-CIO”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Organization_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity
It’s a good thing “anti-globalization” took root. Whatever that is. Is it a reversion to interwar-era trade blocs? Perhaps a reversion to a commodity tariff regime? Perhaps it was liberalizing of labor movement? Who knows.
I was 19 and I was there. A “message” isn’t enough. You need “action items.”
But by all means… feel free to perform a re-enactment. I go to those for the Civil War sometimes too, and they’re interesting.
correct me if i am wrong but the demand is the 99% vs 1% and we are not going to take it anymore
we do have a message and it is a good one. and we will should all get behind it. Unlike egypt or else where when they throw a puppet under the bus, we will not stop until the 1% is no longer controlling our lives. simple
Since the amorphousness, direct democracy and lack of specific demands of OWS make the powers that be nervous, that’s the model that should be followed, I think.
So American Bastille Day it is then.
We need to make sure this movement which has the potential to be GLOBAL, as we ALL have skin in this game, is NOT co-opted like every other goddamn thing.
Can’t hide this … it is WORLDWIDE.
This is the moment for we humans to take a stand.
Much easier to coopt movement with “leaders.” So lack of them is a very positive sign.
Keep Soros-funded Moveon.Org away from Occupy Wall Street. This is where powerful, people-driven movements go to die. -Winston Weeks
If Soros truly wanted to help out he could buy a few pizza pies…!
Btw, it should be noted that the Egyptians are mighty pissed at the snail’s pace of reform since Tahrir square…!
Guessing Hillary is working Egypt bigtime to make sure another Israeli puppet gets est on top.
“The nature of the occupation’s organization hinges upon the belief that electoral politics have failed to address gross injustices. It rests upon the idea that no piece of legislation will provide the solution to systemic problems in society. It stems from the notion that petitions, calling your representative, going to conferences and holding permitted rallies and marches have been ineffective. Corporate and special interests control the agencies, bureaucracies, institutions and politicians, which participate in the electoral and political process, so much that citizens have virtually no power to influence how dire problems are addressed.”
as a “professional” activist who’s a veteran of too many protests/ campaigns/ actions to enumerate, that passage right there got me!
the only ones who need a clear message, overarching goals, yhadda yadda yadda are those least interested in being about organic, lasting change.
Exactly. I’m purposely playing the role of the “grunt” and taking my cues from the (mostly) young people at OWS. If they want my “expertise” and they ask for it, I’ll gladly lend my (qualified) experience. Otherwise, I’m letting the process unfold on its own.
Yep. The system is fixed. Only direct action has any chance of success.
I think you’ve hit upon their message. They should go with that.
Indeed. The surest way to make sure you achieve your goals is to makes sure you don’t have any identifiable goals at all.
You’re being waaayyy too engineery about this subject. Real people are not engineers, and don’t function anything like them.
Perhaps. Though I expect that my distillation of what’s being touted as a triumph of method in #104 should speak for itself.
I mean that’s really what we’re all supposed to be cheering here isn’t it? A complete lack of actionable goals.
At the risk of borrowing too much from pop-culture again:
Step 1) Occupy Wall Street!!!
Step 2) ???
Step 3) Enjoy our newly reformed world.
Sometimes the journey is the goal. Have you gone to any of the occupations? Have you been able to go to the occupation here in NYC and talk to the participants? Because this is something I’m getting by being there: the people there aren’t stupid or blind, or just groping around naively. sometimes a goal is a general direction, not a specific, NARROWLY defined (or forced) “goal” or “demand.”
and really: people who do this for a living know that having the spin ready is really for the media, the actual process of an effective, lasting action takes place more organically.
My experience at OWS tells me, if demands and goals (which really are formulated for the media and those in power) were to be forced, the action would’ve petered out.
there is a REAL ground-up spirit to this and those accustomed to doing things the old way can’t seem to conceptualize a more democratic process.
Ids this how you perceive what’s happening at OWS?
I’ll remind everyone in the room of that the next time a huge project goes completely sideways, because nobody in the room had any idea what the end product was supposed to be. I’m sure it will prove not only effectively pacifying, but also that it’ll push the wayward initiative successfully across the finish line too.
It better work too, because otherwise I’ll have to let go two contractors after the client’s non-payment ensues. But hey… they’ll be able to jump from one rudderless ship into another!
Yes. Unless I’m missing a clear set of ideological principles that can clearly imply policy initiatives… or better yet… actual policy initiatives.
Let me puit it this way:
Few protest movements enjoy perfect clarity about tactics or command widespread support when they begin. what’s important at OWS is the raising of awareness, attracting others to the cause.
the structure develops as this ferments and grows. Dismissing these protests because they lack fully developed, sophisticated professionalization is like to throwing out a child because he can’t read.
THIS is what I mean when I say, as a “professional,” that i don’t want to mess with that process. we’re talking about opposing and undoing and reconceptualizing a fuck up of gigantic proportions at least three decades in the making.
Those who are actually interested in helping it develop will work toward improving those deficiencies, not harp on them in order to belittle its worth.
You want to go humping on something that’s only 2 weeks old. Get a grip.
Actually, there is a guiding light — a general direction and this isn’t a bridge, or a building, but a HUMAN project. Even a good engineer will tell you there’s A LOT of improvising on the field.
But none of them show up to the job site with a massive team of workers and materials without a blueprint.
Spread the word.
We are the 99%
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/Introduction
That’s all well and good. It requires noting that they’re in fact bugs, not features, first. I just avoided posting in most of the articles about this whole thing, because it’s worthwhile to be patient to see how things unfold. It seems ludicrous to me to start celebrating what are obvious issues that will result in inevitable problems.
That’s the only reason I opened my mouth at all.
One last thing: Does anyone really not know that:
– Wall Street is oozing corruption and criminality and its unrestrained political power in the form of crony capitalism and ownership of political institutions is destroying financial security for everyone else —
IS the message?
That’s a mischaracterization of the process at OWS and maybe it’s because you’re looking at it from a purely conceptual perspective.
the “blueprint” as it were, is still being formulated, and it’s being created in a manner alien to people who see doing things in only one way.
There’s always that. 99%ers (or 90%ers last survey I saw) know exactly what the message is. No need to state it for them. Stating it explicitly for the 1%ers just allows them to develop sound bites and propaganda to refute it.
Okay, okay, okay. Perhaps it is my lack of imagination. So I’ll put the question to the supporters of this framing.
How exactly does one achieve a goal without having one? By accident? Random chance?
I’m obviously missing something.
I agree. It’s a protest against what Wall Street & minions have done to the rest of us — the 99%. Against the assault vs. the middle class and the safety net. Against the grand heist by the banks/corporations of our homes, our jobs, our savings, our pensions, our present and future.
Ezra, is that you?
Great statement.
I hate that “job creator” stuff. For the most part these “job creators” are just stashing their money in offshore accounts, buying luxury goods and homes often offshore, and any jobs they may create are either as servants here or cheap labor in places like China, Guatemala, etc.
How about the “job doers”?
:rollseyes:
How about you Randall? How do you accomplish the goals you don’t have?
*heh* *gasp* They’re even talking to the ‘evil’ Muslim Brotherhood…!
Here’s the irony of this… “Occupy Wall Street” was a goal. It was set, it was worked toward, and then it happened.
Surprise!
September 17th of 2011 wasn’t a day that a bunch of random people with no goal in mind all randomly showed up at the same place with overlapping purpose and by osmosis realized that they were all there for the same reason… to Occupy Wall Street.
Yet now that it’s been thoroughly exposed that this thing had no apparent goal after that initial one, we’re all supposed to believe that goals are antithetical to success, despite the fact that initial goal itself never could have been met had it not been originally formulated.
There are sooo many issues. War, USG controlled by corps, ongoing discrimination & disenfrancisement of blacks, hispanics, women (yeh, they are registered to vote in much less than their numbers, esp poor women who haven’t a nanosecond for anything other than work & family (not that voting matters), income distribution writ large, lack of employment, declining real wages, need I go on?
Not necessary to focus on any one of these.
There will only be success for the movement if all of the people with genuine grievances are included, which is exactly what is happening organically. No one can “make” this happen. No enumeration of goals nor grievances will attract more people to the cause. Any such list will piss off otherwise supporters whose grievance was omitted, accidentally or on purpose.
Let it grow, let it grow, let it grow.
Shit on Hillary, her husband, her issue and all who surround her. The U.S. role in Palestine is so shameful I can’t type about it without wanting to throw my puter at the wall.
Income distribution underwrites all of the rest of those. Save for possibly war.
You fix that one, and the others diminish as well. So there’s an identifiable goal and frame to work with. So you can avoid focusing on all of them if you just focus on the common thread between them.
The income distribution can’t be “fixed” without an incredibly complex understanding of how the few control the many, who have all the money & all the power. And the poverty of the tools that the many have to fight back against the few.
I.E., as I typed before, you seem to be approaching this problem from an engineering POV, while it is completely outside the tools of that approach.
The U.S. role in Palestine is so shameful I can’t type about it without wanting to throw my puter at the wall.
I’ve felt like doing that, once or twice before…! *g*
Sticking to the frame you are trying to impose on others isn’t going to get you in the heads of the people that are actually doing this.
Try this on for size:
Does Beethoven’s 9th Symphony have a goal, a specific message?
No it does not. Once executed well, it is an experience that is transformational to the hearer.
Is the transformation the same for everybody? No, not in an identical sense. But its very difficult to find, in a crowd who has just heard/experienced it, many people in a bad mood.
The power of shifting a big crowd’s mood often shifts their sense of understanding, of purpose and what’s around them.
Insisting on a goal of this particular ding-an-sich is to miss its nature – entirely.
How are these things not obvious? They’re most definitely not complex.
1) The monied pay for politicians who create policies to the advantaged of the monied so they get an even larger slice of the pie to further pay for politicians, who…. and so on.
2) The media is the direct beneficiary of ad Dollars, no matter what your cause, and that same media is one of the primary tools used against your causes. You spend ad Dollars and you have to consider you’re undermining your cause.
3) The economy has grown over 30 years, but the gains in that growth have all aggregated into an increasingly smaller number of people and institutions (see #1). It’s not that we’re for a lack of resources, we’re for a lack of how they’re distributed.
4) Turning the levers of power into a for-profit popularity contest of narcissism and folksiness is a terrible idea. People who need to represent your interests have to be selfless, not selfish. Constructing a system that promotes the selfish to represent you is guaranteed to fail.
The worst part is that the solutions aren’t that complicated either if you’re content to throw the existing artifice overboard.
Here’s the problem. Beethoven’s 9th Symphony is an actual thing to be played. Something to be practiced. Something to be produced. If I hit a pot with a spoon and scratch a fork across my wood floor I’m NEVER going to end up at producing Beethoven’s 9th Symphony.
If you’re bereft of actual goals, then it’s hard to comprehend how this is something different than assuming a monkey at a typewriter will eventually produce Hamlet… while simultaneously not even knowing what Hamlet is if you get there.
Distilled into one thing:
1) Money buys influence everywhere.
You either get rid of the money or you level out the influence.
Good framing.
If all of that’s so obvious, why are the 1%ers still controlling everything?
Your model fails on the evidence. Surely an engineer can understand that.
I agree.
At the exponential rate they are growing, it is too soon to “make demands.”
If their currency is their inclusive clarion call to rebel against the 1% why shift the focus when people are still falling in line?
Who knows? Maybe they will never issue a coherent list of demands.
They have done something valuable though. They’ve changed the conversation away from how evil teacher’s unions are they ones to blame, how cutting entitlements will save the country.
They have demonstrated to progressive politicians there is as much anger, frustration and PASSION on the left as in any Tea Party rally. And those politicians would do well to take the note.
Because people refuse to abandon methods that won’t work, they diffuse their motivation through symbolic victories, and they don’t accept that the way forward is a paradigmatic shift, not tinkering at the margins of the status quo.
Hell, you see this all the time, and it’s why you duck out of ECON discussions most of the time (by your own admission). Look at the discussion from earlier about China. Completely predictable set of conditions and outcomes, but people still want to champion it.
I caught all kinds of crap here back with the BP disaster when I attempted to point out that spending $200,000 on a DC-area ad campaign to run TV ads on a local affiliate owned by a huge media conglomerate was absolutely a massive waste of money, and definitely benefited primarily the causes adversaries. The only people that benefited who may have been on “our side” were the people who got paid to make the ad, if there were any. And that ultimately if we were going to engage in a war of ad spending, then we were definitely going to get our asses handed to us covered in crude. Regardless of how obvious all this was… it didn’t stop the money from being spent.
Facts are largely irrelevant. Propaganda rules the day. You have to have better propaganda than the opposition. Full stop.
Now there’s the core of what you’re missing. Many do NOT have better propaganda than the few bc they don’t have the resources of the few. So they can’t do propaganda bc they don’t control the media. So they need other methods to counter propaganda, which is one of the primary tools used by the 1%ers. Furthermore, genuine grievances of the many are not reduceable to soundbites.
I get the impulse to turn a negative into a positive. I really do.
However to say, “Our plan is that we have no plan!!!” is anything other than what it is (a distinct lack of preparedness and cohesion) was just too much for me to keep my mouth shut about.
I think the goal is simply to awaken more of the 99%. Not necessarily all of the 99%, just more. This does not include you – or most of FDL’s regulars – you and they already pretty much know this stuff.
The further goal is to allow this awakening to occur in a way that leaves that balance of We the 99% (what, say 60%?) the space and time to ask and answer their own questions about the rotten state of affairs, on their own terms, on their own timeline, along their own continuum of understanding and integration. What follows must of necessity remain somewhat open-ended in order that they may participate and retain ownership in what follows.
You have an amazing intellect, Nathan. If everyone was as smart and as facile as you, it would not be necessary to nurture a mass movement in this – for you – frustrating way. But our species does not universally rely on or respond to pure logical reasoning like you do, nor does it universally absorb and process data as rapidly. This is more of a behavioral problem than an intellectual one.
Ya got to cut your brothers and sisters some slack!
I completely disagree. The propaganda of the left is significantly better than that of the right. We just very typically refuse to use it, because as a “movement” we’re entirely too high-brow. We still think facts matter (see: continuing failed methods).
99% of the time we ought to be standing side-by-side with the Tea Partiers instead of making fun of them, because we all have one thing in common. We’re all poor or we’re soon going to be.
Then we’re all doomed, because I have a significant legally and medically recognized learning disability. That’s a bad sign if I’m coming across as at all intelligent.
Yikes!
Nathan, in speaking of what you do not comprehend, you prove Kevin’s point and your ignorance.
Nathan, I was there throughout the Seattle WTO protests – when I was not on the streets on N30 and D1, I was in the Convergence Space. The whole time I was there, I was working as the only physician with the Direct Action Network Medical Collective. DAN and others had organized the Seattle WTO protests for months: that’s why the WTO protests succeeded in stopping the WTO round through which the megacorps sought to impose global corporate vetoes on national sovereignty.
The focused, well-planned tactics of the WTO protests brought down upon the 60,000 Americans and internationals who took to the streets in what you in your singular ignorance and arrogance wrongly call “riots” the greatest single chemical weapons attack in the history of North America.
And guess what, Nathan? Despite the chemical weapons attack, the people you in you ignorance falsely call “rioters” defeated the transnational megacorps so severely that neither that round of WTO nor any other have been able to achieve the goals the WTO protests denied them.
And guess what, Nathan? The WTO protests and protesters came forth with a diversity of demands and tactics – a diversity every bit as great as the initial demands from Occupy Wall Street’s GA.
And guess what, Nathan? The whole WTO planning process proceeded in the decentralized fashion used in Occupy Wall Street. WTO used spokes and spokespeople as they proceeded – but anyone could block. Same fundamental distribution of power as the OWS GA ensures.
Write what you know, Nathan. You clearly know nothing about the means, methods, and demands of the Seattle WTO protests, and they happened nearly twelve years ago.
Nathan, if you can’t stretch your mind to comprehend events nearly a dozen years old, why should anyone at FDL or anywhere else rely on you for understanding of – far less prescriptions for – the seventeen days of OWS?
Clearly you cope with – and overcome – your diagnoses splendidly and inspirationally. I hope your condition doesn’t cause you much pain or difficulty.
I think that is actually how things will play out within the OWS model if it can continue to pertain without being co-opted..
For that to happen, though, we must leave our manifesto open and loose enough to permit some (not all) of the Tea Partiers to find common ground with us (and vice – versa).
Hey guess what Dr. Murphy? I was directly subject to those chemical attacks. It was the second time I was shot at by the time I was 19, and it marked the first and only time I’d been tear-gassed. Something I would definitely sustain again if necessary. You weren’t the only one between the two of us who was there.
Congratulations on being there and helping people. For all that it did. It didn’t ebb Free-Trade, or more specifically massively liberalized capital flows while maintaining ever more strict immigration policies (labor flows). Two things I’m also very much in tune with because I leverage the former while being hamstrung by the latter.
The lesson I learned from that series of events was… demonstrating only works when you’re up against a benevolent power structure, and unless you are able to wholesale overthrow them, they’ll only concede enough ground to shut you up.
It pleases me that we are in accord; I hope it does you too.
Sorry for the delayed response. I’ve been occupied at an OccupyMemphis GA.
Hopefully we are on track to commence occupying something somewhere this coming Thursday 07 OCT.
Wrong again, Nathan – the WTO (had they succeded in Seattle) gave the megacorps the chance to impose global “Free” Trade at one stroke, without nation-to-nation agreements. Had that failed to ebb “Free” Trade, Barry Obama wouldn’t have to come mewling to beg Harry Reid for nation to nation free trade agreements like the Columbia and South Korea agreements. Once again, write what you know.
On another level, good on you for being there (I hope you suffered no permanent injury – and no temporary ones, for that matter), and good on you for your willingness to take such action again.
And a pox on the megacorps and their complicit political servants who have harmed so many people in the US and elswhere by rigging the world for massive capital flight. They are our true enemies, and the best possible target for our collective ire, critique, and opposition. Sincere props to you for your honorable part in that vast struggle.
Geez, long after my library due date.
I unnerstan why economists support PTB, even though that req them to prostitute themselves. Wh is why I have no more innersss in splaining them anymore. Done it several times too offen.
What I’m suggesting to you, now much more effort than it’s worth, is that u ask urself a few obvious Qs, like if you’re so smart, and you’re so right, why hasn’t U.S. worked out how you predicted. That shouldn’t be a hard task for an engineer.
You seen any Free-Trade agreements going down in flames lately? I’m not even aware of any proposed that have been shelved due to political opposition since 1999 other than Egypt. I suppose it makes for some interesting headlines and punditry every time one of these things gets drafted up and thrown into the ring, but we ought not pretend like there’s anything much standing in the way of executing them.
Very, very few of the delays (and so far that’s all they’ve been) in executing these agreements have been legal or procedural. They’re held-up almost entirely by an inability of the counter-parties to come to agreeable terms. Not concern or consideration for the American electorate.
I’m just a natural risk-taker. An archetypal adrenaline junkie. As such, putting myself in harm’s way isn’t viewed as a negative outcome for me.
Rubber bullets are only incrementally worse than paintballs half-frozen from a winter morning in the Northwest. Tear gas is great… because you can throw it back.
I don’t know if you are being willfully obtuse or simply are unable to comprehend what the WTO protests you chose to show for up were about.
Having started to provide care for identified patients over thirteen hours ago, I’m not interested in the answer.
The simple fact is that what the WTO protests succeeded in stopping was the megacorps’ effort to force all nation-states to subordinate their laws to the single transnational trade agreement put forth in Seattle.
Whether you are unable to comprehend that fact or merely pretend to be unable to comprehend it is not relevant.
The WTO protesters did not pretend to be able to stop all nation-to-nation trade agreements when they stopped the 1999 WTO meeting long enough to prevent consensus on the global subordination of nation-states laws to megacorps’ trade treaties.
Whether you are unable to comprehend that fact or merely pretend to be unable to comprehend it is not relevant.
The WTO protesters in Seattle made a diversity of demands every bit as broad and far less inchoate than the range of objectives offered by the OWS protesters in their official statement.
Whether you are unable to comprehend that fact or merely pretend to be unable to comprehend it is not relevant.
Today you have falsely told FDL’s readers that the highly organized successful protest tactics planned over months before Seattle were mere riots. In so doing, Nathan, you lied to us all.
Whether you are unable to comprehend that fact or merely pretend to be unable to comprehend it is not relevant.
You went onto to suggest that the OWS protesters’ failure to organize their demands somehow consigns them to the same fate as the Seattle protesters you falsely accuse of rioting.
In so doing you show us all your lack of comprehension of tactics, strategy, and the very real success the WTO protesters’ victory brought about.
And by showing that, you show that you can’t even comprehend events you say you were part of twelve years ago, yet expect others to believe you know so much you can sit behind your keyboard and tell a movement seventeen days old what they must do to succeed.
Because you learned so much from Seattle, right?
Beautiful analogy. Different people may very well be attracted to the process for different reasons but the whole process is about empowerment. It’s about providing a voice and forum for those who feel they have been voiceless for too long.
Dr. Murphy, here’s how I measure success. Did the problem go away? No. Free-Trade still besets us on a regular basis. The agreements are no more tilted away from liberalizing capital flows today than they were in October of 1999.
That the protests succeeded in temporarily disrupting the WTO’s immediate goals did effectively nothing to undermine it’s long-term effects.
We apparently have different measurements of “victory.” That seems to be the disconnect here. Stopping the short-term problem while having no-effect on the long-term game isn’t a real victory to me. It’s a symbolic victory. “See we put a chink in their armor… while they continued to bludgeon us to death with their fully functional arms, legs, and clubs.”
I’m not saying I know so much. I’m saying it seems completely silly to me to celebrate an obvious lack of continued goals and planning. We’re all celebrating that these people set a goal to Occupy Wall Street, but we’re simultaneously now saying that goal setting is a poison to this movement. Exactly nobody has managed to explain to me how one achieves a goal without having any determinable goals at all. Would you like to take a crack at it?
The way many articles about this event have read as of late are tantamount to cheering loudly if every single protestor sign and statement read, “WE HAVE NO PLAN!!!” It’s not unreasonable for a person to look at that and wonder what the hell is going on.
What I learned from Seattle I already told you.
1) Peaceful demonstrations only matter if you’re up against benevolent powers. Otherwise they just crush you with violence.
2) If you don’t succeed in completely dismantling the opposition, you get pacifying concessions, not real changes.
Both of those things are true, and were borne out in Seattle. Among other places.
The goal of OWS is to build a mass movement for broad social change (in my opinion, of course). If you think the goals should be policy proposals, I suggest checking out the American Dream conference in DC next weekend. Lots of wonderful committed liberals will be there.
OWS may not have happened without the anti-globalization movement. The anti-globalization movement has roots in the anti-apartied movement and so on. The seeds were planted long ago and many of us (including you) have help nurture them.
You are in danger of becoming one of my favorite commenters.
You may have put your finger on the problem. Yes, they had nice specific demands. And, because they did, the PTB (and just think about who that is) were able to bargain on those demands and give a little here and make some adjustments there and give some sort of promises (hope) for the future, and the Egyptians got what they have now…a military dictatorship to the liking of the PTB.
One way or another…the demands may be used to strangle them.
As it is, their strength is in the process, and the process is to give voice to anyone and everyone.
You obviously are. Perhaps if you could tell us what “a goal” is, we’d be able to help you with your problem.
Nathan, I think you miss what the CURRENT “goal” of this movement seems to be – to get the 99% together on the same page/block/section of park.
Right now there are so many different groups that think they have the “answer” – MoveOn, Tides Foundation, Code Pink, the Unions, and even the Tea Partiers who aren’t paid stooges of the Professional Right. Yes, there are some of those too.
And the Professional 1% are fueling all of those groups with fearmongering to keep them all separate and fighting among themselves.
Bringing all of these folks together, letting them self-identify as “99%’ers”, instead of “Libs”, “Cons”, “Dems”, “Reps” &etc – showing all of them that there IS a commonality instead of continuous acrimony – that is a HUGE goal, and one that is not going to be achieved overnight, nor by sloganeering and sound bites.
Once the folks who are afraid of having their guns taken away can see they have some common ground with the folks who oppose the death penalty and the folks who believe in universal health care can find some commonality with the folks who believe in a woman’s right to choose…
THEN – and only then – can we come up with the statement that ALL can agree upon, that states specific goals and means to achieve them.
You want to put the cart several acres in front of the horse, it seems.