Somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 people were out in the streets of New York City on October 5 for a march on Wall Street. The march was part of a planned community group/labor action to show solidarity with Occupy Wall Street, the occupation of Liberty Park in lower Manhattan that has been going on for nearly three weeks now. In the past week, major unions and community groups have endorsed the occupiers. These endorsements have greatly transformed how the establishment media and those in power discuss the occupiers.
One might recall in the first week the constant criticism centered on how the “hippies” in the park were disorganized and poorly dressed. The media also labeled them as “anti-capitalist,” though there was very little evidence that they were going to call for an end to capitalism in America. The protesters were belittled for having participants affiliated with Anonymous, the hacktivist group known for engaging in cyber direct actions against companies or institutions that violate people’s rights. They were characterized as anarchists and this was when the media covered them. It was not until after the second weekend when a white-shirted officer named Anthony Bologna pepper-sprayed female protesters penned in on the sidewalk by the NYPD’s orange netting that the media started to show more interest.
The second week saw an additional layer of criticism added. Now, Occupy Wall Street had an incoherent message or, worse, didn’t have one at all. The occupation had no cohesion, nothing holding everyone together. Each person had a set of issues they wanted to advance and, on top of that, they didn’t have any goals. This was all promoted despite the fact that the occupation is the message. This was repeated by pundits and commentators, despite the fact that their target should be enough for anyone to understand what is being protested: they are protesting the crimes of Wall Street and the systemic greed and corruption of the financial business sector, which politicians whose re-election campaigns depend on these corporations have protected from regulation and accountability. They are protesting how the richest 1% in the country has been able to concentrate the country’s wealth in their hands and use the government to push policies, which funnel more of the other 99%’s wealth into the hands of the richest 1%.
Largely, these criticisms from media and those in power were enough to keep progressives timid. Liberal groups and organizations paid attention to Occupy Wall Street but few spoke out in support in the early days. When unions began to show their support, like the New York Local 100 Transportation Workers Union (TWU), progressives started to speak out in support. They showed more elitism arguing the unions were going to come in and save the Occupy Wall Street movement. They were going to establish a set of demands and they were going to also outline goals Occupy Wall Street needed to achieve. (All of this TWU Political Director Marvin Holland roundly rejected saying, “I don’t think it’s our job to tell them what their demands should be.”)
The utter-contempt that existed toward this bottom-up movement has now been swept under the rug. The Occupy Wall Street movement has energy and momentum, which is exactly what President Barack Obama needs to get re-elected. It has people and media attention, which is why the organizers behind the “Take Back the American Dream” conference made a calculation to adjust messaging and include talk about Occupy Wall Street. They did this because the conference was to be about producing a movement that could counter the Tea Party and now, as Van Jones explained to attendees, a movement that could be a counter-balance to the Tea Party had sprouted. They acted as if the people in the streets were for their vision and agenda and talked about how those people showed it was time to build a “Rebuild the American Dream” movement to rival the Tea Party from the left. They even went to the steps of Capitol Hill for a two hour rally to “send a message” to Congress.
Now, leaders who are working on the Obama 2012 re-election campaign or progressive groups that will be canvassing door-to-door to convince people to not abandon Obama are looking to tap in to Occupy Wall Street’s energy. The country is about to see, as Salon’s Joan Walsh suggests, what happens when a movement without leaders meets leaders without a movement. The segment MSNBC host Ed Schultz did on October 5 indicates liberals, whom the Democratic Party counts on to deliver votes, will be working to contain this movement and make it seem these are really frustrated Obama supporters.
Schultz opened the segment saying, “The Occupy Wall Street movement is about to reach critical mass and the Republicans can’t do anything to stop it,” an immediate sign that Schultz is focused on how the movement can help Democrats. “There is no doubt that the Republican Party is afraid of the 99 percent message and now they are attacking it,” he added.
After framing Occupy Wall Street as a group of the left that is against the right, even though the organizers’ message is clearly about those at the bottom against those at the top, he continued, “This is the official start of the 2012 campaign. If this movement is heard by some candidate, this just may be the movement that starts a major change in this country.” You mean if someone like Barack Obama comes along and wants a second chance to show that he isn’t bought off by corporate and special interests, especially big banks on Wall Street? Because, while there is a growing primary challenger movement against Obama, there is a scant amount of support for that among progressives. And, if he is talking about congressional candidates, they face the same system Obama has been unwilling to challenge and no matter how good they are will be managed by the White House so they cannot get in the way of business as usual.
Schultz brought Salon’s Justin Elliott and GRITtv’s Laura Flanders on during the segment to add their take. Here’s a key exchange that took place between Elliott and Schultz:
SCHULTZ: Many of the things that I heard were that of the Democratic platform. Not to overstate or simplify the frustration of people but some of the major issues are right from the Democratic platform. Are they the winners here?
ELLIOTT: Maybe. I think there’s a mix. I haven’t found many Obama supporters in the crowd. As I said, one of the chants I kept hearing is how do we cut the deficit? End the wars. Tax the rich…[cutoff]
SCHULTZ: I think they’re Obama supporters. I do. I just think they’re frustrated Obama supporters.
ELLIOTT: Perhaps, there’s a strain of Obama supporters but there’s a strain of people who are far to the left of people here and they’re very dissatisfied.
Flanders jumped in to help Schultz understand:
What I heard is people wanted change. They wanted an end to war. They got more war. They didn’t want to see drone attacks, even taking out people who were threats to the country. They didn’t want to see a little bit of healthcare reform. They needed to see profit seeking out of healthcare. So, they’re frustrated and they are creating the movement that four years ago was channeled into electoral politics. This is being channeled into a global movement. And I think that’s what’s exciting about it because we need global change.
Schultz still wasn’t buying it. Showing his deep misunderstanding or ignorance of how people can influence power and have influenced power in American history, he said, “So, where’s the change? Let me ask you this — They’re not going to change the government of the United States but they can change who runs it.”
In the segment that aired, Schultz talked to union members or leaders, none of the people who have been sleeping in the park. He didn’t talk to one person who is really responsible for giving labor and the Democrats this opening for something they would never create on their own because they are too top down in their organization.
There are two immediate and glaring issues: (1) Will this movement allow itself to be damaged by liberal groups or Democrats who seek to divert it into campaigns for 2012 elections? Will it fight to hold on to its reputation as a group that is committed to a much grander vision for society than electing new people to positions in a representative democracy that no longer responds to the will of the people? And, (2) do Democratic Party operatives even want to use the energy of Occupy Wall Street to ensure Obama’s re-election?
Obama chief of staff Bill Daley responded to Slate’s Dave Weigel when asked about Occupy Wall Street:
I don’t know if it’s helpful…I wouldn’t characterize it that way. Look it: People express their opinions. In the new social network world, they can do it pretty effectively outside the normal way, historically, people have done it. So whether it’s helpful to us, or helpful for people to understand in the political system that there are a lot of people out there concerned about the economy — I know the focus is on Wall Street, but it’s a broader discussion that we’re having…Part of the thing here, about a balanced approach — I think people want to see fairness in the system.”
The Obama administration and whoever is working on his re-election campaign has the same kind of scorn that New York Mayor Bloomberg has toward the occupiers. And, it all goes back to the attacks on the “professional left” by people affiliated with the Obama administration. It all goes back to Vice President Joe Biden coming out and trying to whip progressives into volunteering for Democrats in 2010 to bridge the enthusiasm gap. And, it is related to President Obama telling the Congressional Black Caucus to “stop whining.”
The Obama administration sees itself as the adults. People who challenge the administration, who always oppose the administration on its every move aren’t acting grown-up. The occupiers are children. They can go out and protest but at some point they have to step aside and let the adults do the hard work necessary to eke out some sort of agreement or compromise.
This is the culture Obama has promoted. It is why vision and policy ideas are secondary to how best to manage the country. It is how undermining justice and the rule of law has been justified. And, through the promotion of civility and the necessity of acting grown-up, corporate and special interests have come out the winner. Income inequality has worsened. Liberals and progressives have been made to follow along or be cast as defectors or misfits.
This promoted culture decreases the likelihood that bold steps are taken to address crises (i.e. global warming, wars, debt, etc). It helps preserve the image and careers of political leaders, the profits of businesses and corporations, and ultimately, has a negative impact on the American population. It is this culture that gives people the cover to not address gross criminal, economic and social injustices in America that has moved Americans to participate in or support Occupy Wall Street.
What should the Occupy Wall Street organizers do? They should continue on the path they were on prior to all the labor and Democratic Party support. They should put the movement first and not bow to any Democratic Party or liberal organization operatives who seek to channel the movement into electoral politics or compel the movement to lower its sights. It should work to maintain a level of discipline and make sure it establishes what it is not. It should continue to aim for the impossible and remember that they have earned their power because they have occupied the park and stood their ground in the face of a media blackout, police brutality and contemptuous criticisms.
The occupiers did not come together to be the Tea Party of the left. They came together to take on corporate power and address problems that impact Americans who are conservative and liberal, left wing and right wing. And, to continue to grow as a movement that challenges the influence of corporations, special interests and the top 1% in government, they need to make clear this is not about building a better Democratic Party. This is about the war on poor, working class and middle class Americans, the constant attacks on unions and how Americans begin to have influence over their government so the assaults on poor and working Americans come to an end.



188 Comments

“what happens when a movement without leaders meets leaders without a movement” Great piece, yet again, Kevin. Pulitzer. Pulitzer.
Electoral politics is irrelevant until the political environment in which it takes place is changed.
It’s a hard idea for folks who live off electoral politics to understand.
This morning’s Daily News front page
OT, but perhaps of value to some. I love the idea of lefties getting some money in their pockets from the Wall Street machine, so I’ve shared some key market calls in the last two months, and all have worked out pretty well (most notably, sell Dow 11,700, down to 10,400; sell Dow 11,250, also down to 10,400). I believe there will be another major selloff to start around Dow 11,200, say plus or minus 50 points. Would place stop at around 11,300. This is my primary work and talent. FWIW.
Indeed. We all know about the connection between “understanding” and “salary” lol.
And Ed Schultz was a small-town sports reporter until he discovered a talkshow market.
Not to mention that $2 billion in campaign expenditures is the quadrennial Christmas season for the WSM.
Special thanks to the night shifters for documenting harrassment of SF camp last night.
DC has no idea what has started in NY. IMO, there is more than enough progressive anger to push past the gargoyles of the political elite and storm the figurative Bastille.
Photos: Peaceful Occupy Wall Street March Followed By Violent Clash
– Gothamist
Watching him yesterday, I could barely keep from puking.
OilBomber is on my TV right now. Fucking. Vomit.
Village Voice; Running Scared blogs on Occupy Wall Street
Needs of the livebloggers: Pepto-Bismol
Chris mathews last night said the media will be critical to this protest and which messages they go with and people they promote will define the protest. Stay awake folks and stay alert do not let the left co-opt this movement. Kevin can I make one suggestion, I am not sure if you are writing for the occupy wall street newspaper maybe if you reprint this post it would do no harm to show how mr hope and change is just like all the others and works for the bankers.
Extended wars
tax cuts for rich
bailouts for rich
wants to gut SS/medicare
healthcare bill that makes more money for pharma
no prosecutions
and so on
Another weekly hit to Americans:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/More-people-sought-apf-212146247.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=
Absolutely!
Plus motrin.
Obama puking BS on TV now.
I’m listening. Don’t know why. He says the same thing over and over. Nothing real ever happens.
Just so you know. More than one opponent to watch.
It’s the media consultants. That’s the way you “catapult the propaganda”.
Addressing question about #OWS now…
‘expresses the frustrations that the American people feel. Biggest financial crisis since the great depression. We’re still seeing some of the same folks who acted irresponsibly fighting efforts to crack down on problems. protestors are frustrated and giving voice to a broad frustration about how our financial system works. I have said before and I’ll continue to repeat that we have to have a strong effective financial sector to grow. I used up a lot of political capital to make sure we avoided a financial meltdown. Had we seen a financial collapse the damage to the american economy would have been worse. Health economy requires that banks compete on basis of best service, best product, best price. can’t be on the basis of hidden fees, deceptive practices, derivative cocktails that put the entire financial structure at risk. Dodd-Frank was designed to prevent this. If these guys get in trouble we can isolate and contain them and let them fail. We’ll have a consumer watchdog on call at all times. Making sure consumers are being treated in a fair way. Mortgage brokers will have to be straight with people on what they’re purchasing. What we’ve seen in the last year is GOP and financial sector fighting us every step of the way. Now these folks are suggesting we go back to the way things were before the crisis. Today we’re having a hearing on my nominee for the financial consumer protection bureau. This is a guy who has been the AG of Ohio, treasurer of Ohio. Ohio GOP and Dems say he’s a good guy. Republicans are opposing him because they don’t like the idea of having a consumer watchdog. You have republican candidates whose entire platform is to get rid of the financial reforms. This does not make sense to the american people. They will continue to be frustrated by it until they get a sense that everyone will play by the same rules. I will be fighting every step of the way to get a consumer watchdog. I will be hugely supportive of banks and financial institutions who do the right thing for their customers. We need them to do what they’re supposed to be doing. Making investments that build the economy. Until the American people see that happening they’ll continue to express frustration about what they see as two sets of rules. I think that the american people understand that not everybody has been following the rules. Wall street is an example of that. Folks who are working hard every day, going to the job, loyal to their companies, used to be the american dream. The old fashioned way. a lot of people who aren’t doing the right things these days are being rewarded. expressed in campaign 2012 and beyond. getting back to old American values. …
Anchor cut off, oilbomber is still talking…
(damn that was tough to type in real time.)
How to cover a demonstration. Or not.
http://blogs.reuters.com/jackshafer/2011/10/05/how-to-cover-a-demonstration-or-not/
Tapper just asked O about not prosecuting any bankers–can’t wai to hear this response lol.
YNN local austin news network is now live at #OccupyAustin!!!!
Guy holding a sign at #OAtx -
Don’t shoot! I’m white!
Oh, He is saying the Wall Street is a problem to prosecute because…
Well, they needed to pass Dodd-Frank. They took advantage of every way to make themselves rich. Practices that SHOULD not have been allowed were not necessarily AGAINST the law.
Phlluugh!
Our Greenwarrior is on her way there now, btw. I’ll be there Saturday.
They just started at 10 this morning. Outside Austin city hall. Looks like there are about 120 people.
Obama saying now reason why we have seen no prosecutions on wall street, because what the bankers did was not really illegal.
Drinks all around!
Local news guy’s out to commercial…
I’m pretty sure that what they did fits the legal definition of the only crime outlined in the Constitution.
That’s just MHO, though.
Hey, there’s always disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.
And before I forget – KEVIN! Great article. You’ve been beyond belief for 20 days now. The last few days especially, since you’re on the ground in DC, are even more impressive. Thank you for your dedication and your outstanding coverage.
LS DC is up.
Treason
+1000
Apparently his considered position is that fraud is not against the law. Taking a short break now to burn my law degree and bar admission certificate. This guy needs a punch in the face more than anybody else I can think of at the moment. Sheesh.
LS guy from Wilmington NC says that Occupy Wilmington, Occupy Raleigh, Occupy Durham begin Saturday.
Occupy KStreet telling about their occupation.
How the fuck did you do that? I stand in awe of you, sir.
I think what he means is I take there money and look the other way.
The bigger the fraud, the more transactions, the longer it takes to gather evidence. The bigger the fraud, the more expensive the defense lawyers. Prosecutors hate like hell to lose cases.
I can think of lots of folks who deserve a punch in the face more than President Obama.
What legal reasons are the cops using for arresting the OWS media people two days in a row? I’ve searched, can’t find any info.
Heh.
Obama is up to his head in shit on fast and furious, and giving 500 million taxpayer money to solyandra looks mighty smelly
LS Interview with someone from Occupy Albuquerque..
It doesn’t take 3-5 years to gather evidence if you are actually interested in looking for evidence, TD. But, it IS hard to look backward when you’re so busy looking forward (presumably to the next great ripoff). We can take an informal vote on who should get their face punched first, I guess. Doesn’t need to be an exclusive list lol.
Its great we are passing free trade says O. It will be good for the american economy????
Notice that O is not saying anything that Wall Street finds troublesome. Quel surprise!
A couple of relevant items from This Modern World:
http://thismodernworld.com/
That’d be the one! 5 gold stars for mswinkle!
Mr. Gosztola,
Being anti-capitalist doesn’t necessarily mean immediately calling for an end to capitalism. It’s entirely possible anti-capitalists recognize that relatively small group of demonstrators isn’t going to bring down capitalism. Therefore, their demands might be more modest at first.
I suppose you want a President deciding personally who to prosecute. The problem is the SDNY and DOJ. And the fraud charges are still being pursued in the face of a lot of political interference. But they are not a dead letter yet.
Great article, Kevin. You’ve been giving us some kick ass journalism these past weeks. Thank you.
They are adults. Unfortunately, they’re spineless and unprincipled adults.
LS Raging Grannies chorus in Freedom Plaza
I type close to 80 words a minute. However, in the process, the rental car I was booking for one of my employees timed out and my cereal got soggy
I work from home, though, so I was right in front of the TV with my laptop.
Capitalism is OK. Corruption is not.
It would seem more appropriate to consider who should “face” having their “ass-in-a-sling”, rc, as the image of the political class (which includes the media) and the “ruling” class, all hobbling around, bent-over, shuffling from “victory” to “victory” and on to the banks, is one that would tickle funny-bones all over the world, I imagine.
;~DW
jobjones: We’re Winning!
– andthisourlife
Great post.
Bravo to the OWS movement. F*ck Obama.
Oh, come on TD. He pronounced his policy to be “look forward, not backward. You don’t think all his appointees got the message? He decided “personally” who NOT TO PROSECUTE!!
Kevin, what’s going on in DC right now? I can’t wait for this to begin.
Seems kinda hard to know that nothing illegal was done without, you know, *investigating* to see whether anything illegal was done. And even absent any actual crimes, investigations could show where changes should be made to deal with the huge flaws that would’ve crashed the economy if we hadn’t fork-loaded huge amounts of cash over to the very same people who fucked things up.
Still awesome. I got some crisp cereal for you right here. Cap’n Crunch lol.
BBC budget cut by 1/5. AWESTERITY!
Someone do something!!! Too much to ask, DW? I guess.
The point is that until the political environment is fixed, the President and the Congress are somewhat irrelevant to worry about so much. There are bigger fish to fry.
Any way we can tweet to occupy wall street etc. that obama just said we have seen no prosecutions on wall street because what they did was not illegal. I think we should get that out
Too much common sense there. You’ll never get elected to anything. /s
Still, very impressive.
The justice system should not be political. Forgive me if, as someone who invested a great deal of energy to that system, I feel a special kind of outrage as regards that particular area of dysfunction.
Not good. The BBC is primo.
LS DC is so boring that the LS is running last night’s footage again
You seem to be up on this twitter thing. anyway we can get this out on the occupy twiiter accounts
obama just said we have seen no prosecutions on wall street because what they did was not illegal. I think we should get that out
He said that? He really said that?
This needs to be sent to every member of Congress and the President.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
Is capitalist exploitation okay?
Kevin continues to amaze unabated.
Hate to reveal my ignorance, but what is LS?
My #75 was intended as reply to TD at #70.
Fuck the liberals party hacks and apparatchiks. If that wasn’t clear, I’ll rephrase the point I wanted to make: Conformist liberals can go to hell on a beam of light.
I hope I live to see the day when these people are standing around, having nowhere to go, slack-jawed, bug-eyed and hopeless.
Yes. Guess he never heard of “fraud.”
Worth repeating.
Where is Oilbomber’s hope and change now?
Honest capitalism and exploitation are not necessarily the same thing. If you think all commerce is a crime, then you need to learn more. No system is perfect, nor should you expect it to be. Read Animal Farm.
livestream
Second and third that.
Thank you, but I was being snarky.
Yeah buddy.
spot on
I think the elites cannot stand being made fun of. They are SO “serious”, afterall. When we deflate them, and, as they are full of hot air, this is relatively easy to do, they become unhinged and lash about, not unlike the White Shirts in NYC.
This is a time of revelation, and power is revealing its limited range of response, its paucity of “option” … ultimately it comes down to brute force and the literal smashing of other human beings.
I merely suggest that such an image is best left attached to “power” and that true and genuine power lies in ideas … and courage … even as we are seeing being played out in NYC and all over this land.
I went to the first GA of Occupy Pittsburgh, last evening, where such power and true humanity were on display, rc, and it seems to me that not only is “something” being done … something earthshaking, in the most human sense … is happening.
I hope that you might attend such a GA, rc, as I’m certain that you would feel exactly what I felt … and continue to feel.
As someone I spoke with suggested, soon we will see people carrying around signs which read, “The Beginning Is Near!”.
DW
Turns out it really meant, “You better HOPE you have some CHANGE left when I’m done with you.” Reminds me of the old Twilight Zone episode, “To Serve Man.”
One of my favorites, rc …
A cookbook.
;~DW
Now that I’ve calmed down….
I’d like to thank Kevin for the superb work he has done on the Occupy Wall Street movement. Let us hope that he receives an Izzy for his invaluable work on this movement!
Ah, thank you.
I understand that, but it still gives me goosebumps.
Spoiler alert! Spoiler alert!
This should be the OWS Anthem. From Chris Floyd, take a listen.
“I’m For The Poor”
http://soundcloud.com/chris-floyd/just-one-plank
I meant someone do something that already has been hired to do the job, DW. I agree something is indeed being done by the people, but they will have to endure much pain before they reach the goal. The police are making that clear now, n’est-ce pas? There’s talk of starting a GA here in Atlanta, went looking for them last week at the purported location, Centennial Park, couldn’t find anybody (there was a Pet Product fair going on lol). Now, I’ve seen a note that they met, and just agreed to meet again to choose a time and place to start. Info hard to come by, but I’ll be there if and when. Can’t sleep out, though, my beat up old body won’t allow that.
Then there’s the Tar Sands lobbyist Paul Elliott, who’s awfully cozy with his Secretary of State. Friends of the Earth got the emails proving this nasty bit of corruption/business-as-usual.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/oct/06/obama-clinton-tar-sands-lobbyist
Wow! Really? You attack a straw man when you respond to a position I didn’t take regarding perfect systems and thinking all commerce (=capitalism?) is a crime.
Please answer the question I asked in your next response if there is one. Is capitalist exploitation okay?
OK, now we’ve both shown our age lol. BTW, love “The Beginning is Near.” Just don’t attach an exact date to it.
LS Good crowd out now that the LS is showing the crowd.
Excellent. It truly is in the ineffable aspect of this thing that true power lies.
Live blog for today – http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2011/10/06/live-blog-for-occupywallstreet-day-twenty-aftermath-of-the-movements-biggest-march-yet/
Now, headed to Freedom Plaza…
Yes, I saw that. when will this all end???
Are you watching the global revolution channel?
Local news, YNN is an all day affair, is covering #OccupyAustin every 10 minutes or so. I love it.
Matt Stoller: The Anti-Politics of Occupy Wall Street
– Naked Capitalism
Sorry, sometimes it’s hard to say enough in these comments to adequately convey one’s thoughts. Did not mean to use a straw man, I despise those kinds of arguments. I took your “capitalist exploitation” to be such a straw man, cuz I never advocated for that.
So, to answer your question more precisely, if “exploitation” means that coercion, dishonesty, or rank unfairness is involved, I’m against it. I’m against those things in any context where they might occur. But there is honest capitalism, i.e., profit based on risk, service, product, and merit, and I support that.
I certainly agree with both of you. Ah, but the instant gratification of a punch . . .
Excellent article. Explains Occupy very well.
Great job Kevin thank you for your outstanding effort.
Have you heard of anything happening in St. Louis? I emailed the organizing group for their dates and times but haven’t heard back from them.
Yes. I’m glad that smarter people than I were somehow in charge last night!
Of note:
Avaaz.Org: The World vs Wall Street
Sister Lisa’s got a new report on #OccupyLA:
“Occupy LA Day 5: It’s a Gift!” (FireDogLake.Com, Lisa Derrick, Oct. 6, 2011)
My nomination: Leonard Cohen’s “Democracy.”
SECOND THAT!! A man’s got to know his limitations lol. (Dirty Harry)
Very informative analysis and affirming of many of my thoughts. I promise you the Obama people want to kill this movement as they did to the smaller more local liberal activist groups during his first campaign. They want to be firmly in charge and marginalize any other potential leadership.
My strong hope is this movement is large enough and well enough connected globally to avoid this happening. I am not even too happy about the unions coming in though I believe the real changes must involve empowerment of labor.
I watched with amazement the Schultz interviews and (as previously) am most struck with his lack of intelligence but I also almost wonder if the Obama people haven’t gotten to him. I know since the Cenk Ugyur and Olberman firings MSNBC has gone very lightly on any criticism of Obama.
Schultz just got his feelings hurt and walked off the noon MSNBC news. LOL
I do appreciate your good reporting Kevin.
New post and thread upstairs. (That was quick.)
In the death throes of capitalism, wherein the American empire has hypertrophied like some red sun giant just before the flame out, the citizenry will not be able to affect American capitalism, or move its governmental apparatus more than a backsliding nod, unless it gets its own political party dedicated not to the reform of capitalism, but to its overthrow and replacement with an international socialist system of cooperating states.
No more pitting American workers against Chinese, or Brazilian, or Indian or African workers. No more banking system aimed at enriching the few. No more wars killing innocent people to enrich the bomb-makers and hi-tech armament companies, and festoon the chests of generals with more medals. No more discrimination and pitting of worker against worker, man against woman, caucasian against African American or other minority. No more appeals that one religion is better than another. No more scapegoating of workers who serve society, like nurses, teachers and firemen.
Just cooperation, sharing of societal wealth, tolerance, peace, and the building of a sustainable, hopeful future, with a fair wage and guaranteed housing and health care for all.
This is what I am looking for from a mass movement: the construction of a party that would stand for something like this and fight for it. Everything else will play into the hands of the existing system.
That was a witty remark, about a movement without leaders meeting leaders without a movement. Sometimes the movement will overwhelm and push the leaders, or replace those leaders as new leaders arise. Other times, sadly, it is often the opposite, the movement is suborned to reformist scams that go nowhere, or benefit only the few (as happened to African Americans, whose actual economic condition has really sank in recent years, despite the election of an African American president).
What will happen in this collision? It appears to me that the do-nothing labor bureaucracy, which has led many a sell-out contract and refused to mobilize the actual power of labor to organize the unorganized and beat back strikebreaking laws and layoffs (read Howard Zinn, as Kevin often suggests, on what a real labor movement and radicalism looked like back in the 1930s) are using the OWS as a left cover for their usual inaction, and to corral votes into the Democratic Party.
Of course they won’t tell OWS what to do. That would be suicide. Meanwhile, what OWS is doing is putting their necks on the line and the labor bureaucracy is telling their workers to suck it up and do the only thing they supposedly can: vote the Democratic ticket. OWS has now entered this political bloc, and they will find it difficult to extricate itself. It should tell you something when the labor bureaucracy feels comfortable endorsing you. — Hell, they should be worrying about their job from rising new and radical leaders within labor’s own ranks!
While it is good that OWS links up with its natural ally, labor, it only makes the programmatic conflict even sharper, between the anti-capitalist protest ethos of many in the OWS crowds and a perspective-clouded view of how to translate that into real change in the world. I’m suggesting that so long as the movement tries to stay within the bounds of respecting capitalism, i.e., the rights of the bankers and corporations to their property and stolen trillions of dollars, then it will be very difficult to stop the movement from serving some group seeking at best impotent reform of that system.
I know many don’t or won’t share this pro-socialist viewpoint, but I ask them to reflect on what decades of trying to reform the capitalist system has actually wrought.
Insightful, as always, TS. Sorry I missed Schultz at noon lol.
Great work, Kevin. Thank you.
;~DW
IMO, one can rationally and efficiently combine the good aspects of both capitalism and socialism, if one is willing to give up blind devotion to either ideology. Neither one should be expected to be viable in its purest form.
I know.
Yes.
Keep checking, there was about four days notice, here, in soon to be Occupied Pittsburgh.
Yes, me old bones will be, essentially, “support” … and present when possumble.
;~DW
Thank you Jeff. Very thoughtful and I think spot on. Yes. The trick is to prevail without forwarding the interests of some segment of a basically corrupt and evil system. I do think this is real and unless the government brings down an oppressive heel on them it will be interesting to see how it evolves.
My personal take is to not become impatient for concrete changes in laws or even lawmakers but to continue to be there, visible, vocal and non-violent. And to avoid ideological leaders.
Rather, TAKE. ‘EM. DOWN. Especially the Baracketeer!
Hmmm … “purest form” …
The former ain’t, no how, “pure” …
And, so far as I know, rc, the latter ain’t never really been practiced.
YMMV.
DW
I’m glad Obama came out and flatly stated that he doesn’t believe anything illegal has happened on Wall Street. Just to take one example, off balance-sheet transactions, designed to deceive investors, are clear unambiguous fraud. Better a Republican in office saying this stuff and having to pay a political price than someone who most people believe is a ‘progressive’ or ‘socialist’ saying it.
So Mr. Prezididn’t, if nothing they did was illegal, why hasn’t something been done to make it illegal to avoid a repeat? “Well I know those guys (they finance my campaigns) and they are savvy businessmen.” Dude, you’re not talking to Ed Shultz or Rachel Maddow or the contestants on Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader. O’s an irrelevant douchbag by his own making.
Given their method of repeating the speaker’s words to amplify the sound, it will be interesting to see what happens if somebody tries to get up and make a get-out-the-vote-for-the-president bullshit kind of speech. Will they obediently repeat it for the crowd? Or will they refuse to parrot the words?
Union membership joined Occupy Wall Street, UNION leaders got drag to the party.
Dem Leaders In DC are in full panic mode, they are watching their politcal party walk away from them.
Why Did OBAMA give this stupid speech today? Obama does not want Occupy Wall Street taking over the Weekend Media cycle, so he does a say nothing speech on Thursday morning.
If one watched Ed Schultz, one could clearly see this was a stage act? Ed Schultz called this OBAMA greatest press conference ever? and DYLAN and Robert Reich ripped him a new one. Old Ed than exited stage left pissed off!
Clearly MSNBC or OBAMA WH TV will discuss Obama silly speech today, and ignore Occupy Wall Street
Dems Leaders in DC, know that the Dem base is ignoring OBAMA, they are seeking ways to bring the base back, but with Occupy Wall Street growing daily, they are losing the battle big time.
For years FDL members have been saying that OBAMA is toxic, and Dems must cut ties with OBAMA ASAP, Occupy Wall Street is going to force Dems to choose a side, are you with Occupy Wall Street or OBAMA?
Picking John Daley as WH head of staff, was very, very, foolish.
Look around all new Dems will join Occupy Wall Street “how many new Dems are going to say they like OBAMA ideas?” NONE
House Dems have already join Occupy Wall Street. (these guys and gals know which way the wind is blowing, they jumping off the OBAMA titantic quickly)
Keep an eye on DEM senators up for re-election, these guys will be primaried, and they can’t hang out with OBAMA to much longer.
this is all very entertaining!
the NYPD mess up yet again last night, thus making Occupy Wall Street more powerful.
being rich does not make one smart, ask Bloomie
No, but you’ll see a lot of crossed arms.
Whoops! Obama should talk with his lawyer. Federal mail fraud, wire fraud, bank fraud, conspiracy to commit all of the above…. and doubtless there are more.
Thanks! That’s a good reply.
Exactly what is the origin of capitalist profit? Where does it come from? How, exactly how, does a capitalist begin with machines, buildings, raw materials of a given price, combine them with labor purchased at a given wage and end up with finished commodities with a greater total price than the capitalist invested at the beginning? What is the origin of the difference between the fixed dollar amount a capitalist invests and the augmented total price of the commodity outputs?
There it is: the one song that wraps up where I started as an activist and where I’ll end. Actually it’s called “Just One Plank.”
Deserves a second mention:
http://soundcloud.com/chris-floyd/just-one-plank
Bravo, DW; I rejoice for you! For us all!
And for a long time he was a flaming rightwinger.
I think the Occupy Wall Street event is reminding Democratic politicians that there are tens of millions of votes awaiting a progressive politician with the balls to call for income redistribution. We WILL demote the neo-liberals and corporate Democrats such as Obama, and return the Democratic party to the ideals of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. All it will take is one smart politician who wants to get ahead of the others, and a whole lot of people behind him.
What they usually do, it is my understanding, is break out into glorious song. Havta love it.
The way the GA works, contrary to what some think, is very structured. there are different parts of the GA devoted to different concerns.
While participation is encouraged, no one will have a soap box to to go on ad infinitum with an agenda tangential to the movement.
Best comment of the season.
” OWS has now entered this political bloc, and they will find it difficult to extricate itself. ”
Not at all, Jeff. The civil rights movement remained outside of the politics of the time. I believe the First Occupiers very well knew that this is the only way to be, at least for the present moment, since history teaches that this is the way to proceed. Even going into the times of necessary social renewal, and this is such a time, the power of the movement cannot be co-opted as long as the principles on which it grew, like the historical quotation from our own national birth, are there to be resourced and digested. And it is lovely now – I get to be the third antiphon!
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
That second paragraph……DAMN that’s good. We should print that up and pass it around. I’d bet you LOTS of people don’t know where that came from. It seems to be PARTICULARLY APPROPRIATE again today.
I think we should ALL get those three corner hats. EVERYBODY looks good in one. But not the knee-breeches. That’s kinda “Rafael Nadal”……
The best thing about OWS is that it has manifested in global consciousness as an idea inspiring an open, welcoming, and egalitarian global discussion about what is wrong and what must we do to fix it.
Solutions are not preset buttons to push. They will be organically grown from the knowledge and experience gained in the past.
We are in the moment at once participating in the process and watching it happen via the internet and twitter.
This is the first time since homo sapiens sapiens originated approximately 200,000 years ago in southern Africa that such an event has been possible.
Rejoice in the magic of this precious moment and be thankful that you are here at this unique time to experience it.
Brilliant piece. I so hope that this is the real thing (and I do) and it isn’t either (1) co-opted by the instutionalized left and/or (2) brutally crushed by the powers that really run the country. I get the feeling that (1) isn’t that likely but am afraid that once this starts being a real threat that (2) will take off.
Thanks RC. Ratigan kept interrupting Schultz because he was wrong. The rest of the panel made certain to comment on Ratigan being right. Be interesting what he has to say on his show this evening.. .
Yep. Capitalism needs to be hemmed in by socialism (floors and ceilings) and infused with The Commons.
All your points are right on. In particular the jeopardy of its own making the Democratic party and Obama have put themselves in. It will be interesting to see more of the strategy they develop to deal. I fear it will ultimately be only oppression and intimidation. That is why I say the most important thing is patience and not relent in the public demonstrations of opposition. They made fun of the hippies and the dope smoking sing in at Woodstock but they kept showing up and changed the country. I am afraid to hope for such an outcome this time but must.
Mason, thank you, that was so eloquent. I was having a bad day trying to convince an apathetic coworker that OWS is the real deal and she went off on me.
Thank you. It was an inspiring post.
I must disagree, and if you read the polemics of that period from within the civil rights movement, you’ll see that they were very much embedded within the political controversies of that time, including electoral politics. In fact, you can’t understand that period any other way, whether it was the antagonisms between black nationalists and the black church-led movement, the controversies when ML King, Jr. came out against the Vietnam War, or tried to link the civil rights movement to labor issue, or drawing upon civil rights credentials by black politicians, etc.
The inheritors of that struggle politically are still around us in the form of black politicians, and especially the Black Congressional Caucus.
Were the civil rights protesters indifferent, for instance, to the struggles around the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, or in the school desegregation and busing fights? Of course not.
Everything is political, juliania, and it would be futile to try and separate out any particular movement from how it is embedded in a living political reality.
Got a message from SEIU president —– an obvious attempt to co-opt the occupation of Wall Street. From my experience watching the health care debate up close, the SEIU and Organizing for America are one and the same.
The message was to create an occupy event where I live —- which is really too funny if you could see where I live —– but, of course, that’s not what the message was really about.
Nice job. We live in an instant gratification country. But, really, if one little 24 hour demonstration would have got the corruption out of politics, it would have done sooner. There’s always a critic. Always.
Lot of us here are old–over 40–so we were brought up in a different milieu than younger people. They aren’t going to cave to the unions because they never grew up around them like we did. They seem to have antipathy for the whole system–political, economic, social. It’s amazing. They are a very smart bunch. I wish my Gen Xers had more hope at their age. But at least I get a second chance and may live through their glorious example!
Ed’s kind of a slow learner. I think he’s probably a little ticked that the kids of OWS have replaced his outrage gig with the real deal.
I have no quarrel with profit. None.
I DO have issue the stock market. It’s much too long for me to outline here. But my issue is with the stock market.
If these are the same “liberals” who support Obama…..keep them out of the movement !
Good article. There was always a reason I at least sorta liked FireDogLake compared to the rest of the progressive dreck. Not only did this article let slip the truism that the Main Scheme Media is biased towards the establishment Demorat Party (heavens, what will John Stewart say?), but its possibly the only progressive blurb on the internets anywhere that admit the OWS kids are already proving useful idiots for the D-Rat machine. The unions whom have looted the coffers dry through corrupt “collective bargaining” and the MSNBC shills who sell their propaganda are now on hand to help the OWS “lean forward”. When does the carpetbagger/progressive rockstar Millionaire Mike “End Capitalism” Moore show up? Oh, he did I see. I suppose George Soros is next, or is he there too already; that’s literally “rich”, one of the biggest banksters on the planet leading an overthrow of “the banks”.
So, good article, but I wonder if there’s still not enough introspection here. After all, Wall Street’s conquest of America is the pinnacle of liberalism and neoliberalism. Anytime justice was coming for the national banks, Big Government stepped in and saved them, such as the OCC did during the Smiley Vs. Citibank SC case. Take Wall Street away from New York, as the OWS wants, and the bloated welfare state there crumbles like a wafer; turns out, the only way to keep the housing assistance checks and big union pensions going in NYC was to make a Faustian bargain with the Masters of the Universe. Obama’s biggest contributors were not the sheeple chanting “Yes We Can” but Government Sachs, described once as a “Keynesian hot house” by the WSJ and whom made a killing overseas helping socialist societies like Greece keep the Big Socialist Lie going with accounting tricks.
The frank truth is that OWS was doomed to fail from the start, and not because they will prove useful idiots. It’s because they were idiots to begin with. Whenever it seems they have an idea to put forward, it’s the usual peon liberal demands that Authority and Big Government solve the problems inflicted by Authority and Big Government. The same Big Government that gave us pointless wars, Government Sachs, and Fed-inflicted Great Recessions can be trusted to “take profit out of the health care system”. What geniuses. We can’t wait for them to “coalesce” around the Demorat Party and “refine their message”.
Wow. I don’t know if you are even coming back to read this all this time later, and life is too short (really) for me to reinvent all economic theory here and now. But, in good faith, I’ll give a short answer, and also in hope that my dear friend DW Bartoo will take this as response to his last comment. In your example, the additional value added by the “capitalist” is the organization and management of all the elements you list, PLUS he assumes the total risk of failure. Everyone else gets theirs if the venture fails, but not him. Many do not understand what risk is, but I live in the arena of risk, have for my whole life, so I place a value on it, and understand how it works re both reward and consequence. I think that equation works out to be roughly fair. Real world, good enough. As to socialism, pure form (for you, DW), it may never have been pure in practice, but my belief is that the lazy contributor is the fatal flaw of that theory, just as the psychopathically greedy and/or corrupt actor is the fatal flaw of the pure capitalist system in practice. Combining the best aspects of both theories is the way to go.
You know something? I really like it when you show up.
Well chosen handle, sir. And to think I had high expectations after reading your first sentence.
The Democratic party is just as much of a problem as the Rethugs because simply put you need both sides of the coin to carry on the charade.
Its no surprise that the Democratic establishment will try to coop the occupy movement and try to channel it back into the system. That’s the function the democratic party serves.
Every two years the Dems tell people from all movements to put aside their concerns and channel their energy into getting Dems elected because thats how they get their concerns addressed. Ofcourse thats not true but thats pretty clearly their playbook.
The People understand the system is so broken now and that trying to change things now requires them to step up. The electoral system has become part of the problem and is now a major roadblock to change. This has happened because the $$ has bought it wholesale and expects the rest of us to still grant it legitimacy. Here’s the problem as I see it, the Pols derive their power from US not the other way around and WE have been systematically excluded from the process and we know it. This causes something very dangerous to happen a power vacuum opens when the system is no longer considered legit by the people its supposed to serve. We’ve arrived at that moment. Its about to get very interesting.
Feigned omniscience becomes you.
The system is not broken…yet.
This is the whole point. We 99% are not part of the system.
Wouldn’t you have to explain profit’s origin before you conclude you don’t have any problem with the profit motive?
Exactly how does the amount of money capital invested at the beginning at a capitalist production process become a greater amount total price of commodities at the end? You didn’t explain this. You just provided a risk justification for why capitalists appropriate profit, not its origin.
I should add risk has absolutely nothing to do with capitalists appropriating profit. That’s ideology. Capitalists have the right to appropriate profit BECAUSE they privately own raw materials, tools, machines and buildings.
I don’t know whether you are being deliberately obtuse, or just now got released from a re-education camp. The time and effort of initiating, organizing, and managing business day after day, keeping sales orders coming, etc., have no value to you and deserve no compensation? Or the risk that the cash flow is not managed at any given moment, and the enterprise fails, so that the investment is lost? The owner is the only one in the process that might not get paid for his efforts. Go fuck yourself if that is how your personal sense of fairness wants to order the universe. I have run a business, performing a dozen different roles because it was small and it was mine. You obviously have not. You have too much respect for the generic worker, and too little for the owner. Try to get into the middle, and you will seem less insane.
I just got an email with the subject “Occupy Ault” from SEIU. Ault is my tiny home town and while it does have a bank, I strongly doubt that Fred (the director) has a great deal of influence on Wall Street. It’s this sort of impersonal form-letter activism that has pretty much turned off my involvement with the big national campaigns.
It’s a call to check out their database of actions and potentially join up. Thankfully, there wasn’t a fundraising pitch, but this sort of centrally directed, top-down nationwide spontaneous demonstration seems pretty worn out these days. MoveOn pretty much drained my desire to go to message-controlled rallies that are meant more to highlight their organizing power than actually do some good.
Organizations that are trying to harness this movement and turn it into the same old thing just don’t seem to understand what’s going on.
Why do you equate trade with capitalism? Every economy that ever existed has traded in some way or the other. Capitalism means rather that the big businesses and banks, the real economic power , remains in the hands of big capital. I see some here saying “capitalism is not the problem”, and i think, there exactly is our problem, that some still, amidts all this mess, cant identify the real problem. Capitalism gives disproportionate economic power to a select few, we can call them the one percent. The results of this unbalance should be too obvious by now to have to repeat. And until a real peoples power mowement springs up to challenge capital, things will never change. I sincerely hope Occupy Wall Street is it, we dont have much time.
Yeah, Greece is really an icon of socialism, full of tax-evading millionaires. But strangely it was a rightist government what cooked the books. And the new so called socialists are being armstwisted to impose the most destructive austerity-measures one can imagine.
You really are deluded in so many ways. You see some of the problems, and manage to draw all the wrong conclusions. Another triumph for the great american indoctrination system.
Great piece, Kevin. Really needed to be said!! I’m way behind following the live blog, and this one…didn’t take time to read all the comments. Just wanted to say good blog and needed to be said. Thanks!
Wow! Insane? I was being polite even though I thought I was dealing with an ignorant ideologue. You attacked me and so now I’m done with that.
You still don’t answer the question which is what is profit’s origin. You just speak of deserving profit or not. I expect an ideological response from WSJ readers, but not firedoglake’s.
As far as reading and education goes, I’ll put my economics credentials up against yours any day.
The results you see are the results of corruption, not of capitalism. Every and any system is susceptible to corruption. I oppose corruption wherever it occurs. I also oppose ideological fanaticism wherever it occurs.
Are you open to suggestions as to where you can put your “economic credentials up”? I have no more time that I am willing to waste on you.
Its not that simple. Corruption, sure. But capitalism tends to give the monied elites all the power they need to corrupt any and everyone. Too much money and economic resources in the hands of the few creates its own field of gravity, so to speak, that distorts the world around it. Its not an issue of legality. Goldman Sachs will alweays wield too much power, as will the Koch Brothers, even if they are prevented to outright break the laws. Capitalists will always wield too much power, as long as they are guaranteed ownership of the economy.
As for fanaticism, ill stand with you on the barrivaces opposing it. But we really need to start discussing capitalism and alternative models of economic organization. And i dont see much ideological fanaticism in this thread, just people asking the right questions. I think George Orwell (dont know why you brought up the Animal farm earlier but its an excellent book!) would have appropved 100%.
Nothing’s simple when it comes to economics. I’ve dedicated decades to intensively studying how money and power play out in the modern world. What you are hearing from me is a rejection of any and all theories as to their infallibility. And I get weary discussing subtle issues with people who come to the discussion from either extreme. As I deemed stewart to be doing, but not you. Animal Farm was cited by me as a depiction of socialism as being equally susceptible to corruption.
You were the one indicating I didn’t have enough knowledge. It turns out you’re the moron.
I asked you what is profit’s origin? You respond with anything but an answer including personal attacks. Could it be the reason you approve of capitalism is because you don’t recognize it’s inherently exploitative?
I guarantee you wouldn’t say “Go fuck yourself” if I was standing right in front of you.
NOTHING could be more stupid than that implied threat against someone whose capabilities you know NOTHING about. Very revealing. Why don’t you answer your own question right here and now, and then we can all see whether your fabulous credentials are worth anything. You might also share with us what your fabulous credentials are, but keep in mind that the Wall Street geniuses who killed the economy have BETTER credentials than any you might have. Credentials mean nothing if you can’t think clearly and reach the correct conclusions. You have already demonstrated that you cannot research well, or read carefully. Calling me an ideologue reflects ignorance on a very grand scale.
Incidentally, before you so confidently assume my moronhood, maybe you should read my Comment #4 at the top of this thread. If you had read the thread originally, rather than charging in at the end with your extremist viewpoint, you might have saved yourself some embarrassment, Credential Boy.
What i hope can come out of this new movement is a healthy critical perspective on economic power. As we have all been royally fucked over by big business and Wall Street the last 20-30 years or so, its about time we start discussing alternatives. Its interesting that George Orwell was brought into the debate: I believe the kind of socialism he saw and defened with his life in Catalunya, decentralised, antiauthoritarian, fundamentally democratic, is our best bet for the future. It will allow us to combine the best of capitalism (market pricing on commodities) with democratically goberned economic instituetions and work places!
I certainly agree that there is much to discuss about adjustments and changes that would make the system much better. Some very large changes. Too many to list here. I’m always open to any good idea that comes along. But, I think we should wait until AFTER we have acquired some power to have those very important and very detailed discussions. And I strongly believe we should be guided by a devotion to pragmatic good results, and NOT by any philosophical ideology. I look forward to having many interesting and productive discussions with you and many others AFTER we get the fascist boot off of our collective necks.
Finally you admit, first by not answering the question and then again by not even trying to answer it that you have no idea where profit originates. However, you maintain capitalism is non-exploitative. Marinate in your own ignorance. You’re the one who started the abusiveness. I owe you nothing.
Just let me know when and where you’d like to meet and try tell me to “fuck off.”
Thank you for helping me help you demonstrate that you’re an ignorant ideologue.
You have no authority to interrogate me, do you? If you want to bloviate about where you think profit comes form, feel free, I invited you to do so, and you got nothing. I never maintained ANYTHING re exploitation, I disapprove of it but it’s clear we don’t define it the same way, and you assumed its omnipresence in the way you posed your original question, asshole. As for your stupid impotent threats, they only prove that you have a miniscule penis. To match your brain. It does not bode well for the likelihood that you will have a long life. Now, GO FUCK YOURSELF!