Another excellent post, Kevin, and welcome back.

Just one time, I wish someone could get on TV and say on camera to all these “faux-clueless” interviewers, “The reason you don’t know what our message and demands are is that you are being paid specifically to ignore the obvious problems and maintain the illusion that everything is always great in America.”

Well said, Kevin.

Hi, Kevin. Is this the new liveblog? (Now off to read the actual post…)

Good work Kevin I am glad you watch Chris Matthews so I don’t have to. What a moron he is. None of these elites really know what this is about. I think they are going to find out soon enough. I don’t think cold weather will make this stop. IMHO of course.

Just as a side note here is a you tube video in St. Louis on Monday night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UP5-dfBhKE&feature=related

Great read, Kevin. Thank you for covering this from the beginning. I watched OWS-NYC in the first week on Livestream and I knew this movement was going to grow expotentially. In those early days, I came back to FDL to see if anyone was covering this and I found you. Thank you for the great job.

One thing I wanted to mention. Everyone here and in the movement has acknowledged that the Dems would try to co-op OWS and we all know that is not going to happen. Also, we can see the Republicans changing their rhetoric — some of it is to placate the 99% and other for political reasons.

But even more important than these attempts to dilute this movementis that when the 1% realizes that they cannot co-op or placate this movement, they will try to take away the voice of this movement by other means. The one thing that links all of the 99% is the Internet. The Internet backbone is owned by about 6 corporations. I really think the movement needs to consider how they will communicate with each other if there are disruptions in normal channels from time to time — twitter, cell phones, blogs, etc. If the technology or communicaiton committees have already been planning for it — then never mind. I just thought it was worth mentioning.

In related news:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/149678/americans-express-historic-negativity-toward-government.aspx

This is not a coincidence.

This is basically a teaser for a post I hope to get up tomorrow morning.

On a train now to Occupy Boston.

Thanks

(bless the energy of the young.)

Quzi, I had some thoughts on your last point.

And, as Tarheel Dem pointed out in an earlier thread,

The problem for the PtB is that it is not easy to have the social media differentially go black. Ask Hosni Mubarak how cutting the internet connections into Egypt worked for him. The movement was able to use the network outside Egypt and phone lines into Egypt to keep organizing. But lots of business message could neither go out nor come in, hobbling the Egyptian economy.

No, I’m getting up a live blog now. I know athena1 is going to post a round-up but I still want to have a live blog going. I’m going to be linking to her roundup posts.

Are we going to have a liveblog today?

Nevermind. Crosspost.

Here’s the question of questions… I agree, the system is totally broken. But “public rebellion” to achieve what? It is not enough to say some grand vision of society.

Are the OWS protesters asking Wall Street or the government to make changes, or are they looking to change the system itself? What do you think? What do FDL/Dissenter readers think? — By the way, I think that those supporting OWS, including those on the sidelines such as myself, should at the least demand the dropping of all charges against non-violent OWS protesters, in NYC, in Boston, and elsewhere.

It is not unusual for people to vote against their interests, or be wooed to support a party that is opposed to its needs. As I noted in a comment at Glenn Greenwald’s blog, labor unions for decades have supported a political party (the Democrats) who have done basically nothing for them, and who are backed by the bosses/financiers. Labor militancy was directed towards mainstream electoralism via the trade union bureaucracy. This could not be done without a witchhunt against radicals and reds within the unions, which was carried out in the McCarthy period. To some extent, it appears to me, OWS movement is insulated from that by their lack of an ossified bureaucracy.

But the lack of organization long-term can also a weakness, as the movement goes through inevitable ups and downs. No movement is always zooming up, up, up. There will be setbacks. There will be victories.

Anticapitalism leads to either Reform or Revolution. This was thoroughly discussed in the German radical movement in the period before WWI. Each path also leads in two directions. Radical reform to working through existing parties or starting a new radical party. Revolution also leads to legal participation in protected speech activities and organizing for the overthrow of the existing social order, including the construction of a revolutionary mass political party, or to substitutionalist and adventurist guerilla actions, such as a section of the New Left embraced in the 1960s-70s.

To some degree, the movement by the Democratic liberals and some of the unions to embrace OWS is meant to offset the demand that would rise sooner or later for a new political party. They are trying to head it off at the Left pass, so to speak.

Perhaps OWS has discovered a new third way. But while greatly heartened by the awakening of a new generation, the laws of historical development argue that the choices noted above are on the agenda.

Thanks again. (Nice coverage of Tweety, BTW.)

You effing rock, Kevin.

I think this would make a great diary, Jeff.

IMO at this point we are looking to build a movement. That’s it for now.

In politics, as in comedy, timing is everything.

Seconded.

This isn’t about reform or revolution. Yet. It’s about waking up the nation (and the world) to the real problems we’re facing.

When everyone is awake, or as close to everyone as we can get, we’ll decide where to go from there.

A populist movement needs the populous before it can move.

To some degree, the movement by the Democratic liberals and some of the unions to embrace OWS is meant to offset the demand that would rise sooner or later for a new political party.

Such a development would truly be interesting.

As to the rest of your questions, I had a response to your history-oriented take on the movement (rummages around, oh, here it is), and you chose to respond not to this or realitychecker’s riposte.

I’ll try not to presume that you simply think my view is over-the-top and not worth your consideration, but just in case I’ll not repeat myself here. The links are there if you are interested.

Thanks, Petro. I do remebmer reading that about Egypt and I do think that they were prepared for that. I don’t expect that there would be a complete blackout because of the economics and how dependent our infrastructure is on the internet — such as control systems for power grids. However, I would not rule out some temporary blackouts or inteference in communicaiton systems at strategic times. Maybe not though.

Exactly.

Sorry, Jeff – my #19 was a response to you.

that’s it —

When everyone is awake, or as close to everyone as we can get, we’ll decide where to go from there.

A populist movement needs the populous before it can move.

Yes, and just getting the pitchforks aimed at the right bastards is a good start.

I agree with this as well. In spades.

It’s where we have to start! Breaking down the wall that the 4th Estate has willingly thrown up in front of us, this whole left v right dichotomy that keeps everyone embroiled in a battle that’s already lost. Moneyed interests are the problem here, not politicians. Politicians are a symptom.

Get the “occupy day” right.
You have no “day 24″.

athena is great. she’s admitted to being a bit ocd.
please be clear on her role.
thank you, kevin.

rigged by two parties. rigged by Congress. rigged by the Executive. rigged by a judiciary into which no liberal or progressive mind must be allowed.

i don’t see no way out of here
said the joker to the thief
b. dylan

F*ck the Ds.

And if that’s not clear enough:

F*ck the Ds.

Richard Cordray?!!

You mean, the guy that the banks and Republicans (and most Democrats) like, as opposed to Elizabeth Warren, whom Obama threw under the bus?

OH GOD enough of this Wasserman-Schulz person already.

Jeff, all excellent questions. But what I’ve seen going on is an authentic, messy grassroots movement. There is no common direction yet. There are designated (and somewhat self-appointed, because of the voluntarist nature of the movement) spokespersons. Facilitators of the process have the power to drive content as much as process, but the ones I’ve monitored on livestream have scrupulously avoided doing that.

So far what people want is (1) an honest conversation about the political-economic crisis that we are in as a result of the PtB paralyzing any reform moves in Congress and (2) a change in political culture in which the people in conversation drive the issues and agenda and not the Wall Street media.

The Democrats who have embraced the September 17 Constitution Day movement to Occupy Wall Street (to state what would be the full name in a non-abbreviated culture) are those who would, except for their current position, be the most likely to show up in an action like Occupy Wall Street.

The best description of it that I have seen is that it’s a peasant rebellion against debt and penury, not a workers rebellion. So all of the 150-year old analysis of how workers rebellions proceed to reform or revolution might not apply. It is anti-capitalist in effect, not in philosophy although there are folks in the general assemblies who talk in traditional anti-capitalist terms.

I would say that the things to watch are (1) how it plays out across the South and Plains states, (2) how the repression by Democratic mayors in liberal Democratic strongholds affects the shape of the overall movement, (3) how the folks who make their living from information and information processing respond to the movement, and (4) how the movement attracts public employees, including the police and the military.

My sense is that there will not be a mass political party because culturally there no longer is a mass anything. The Marxist-antiMarxist dialectic might just have transmogrified into something quite different. If so, old thought patterns are going to obstruct understanding of what’s going on.

The unions have a specific interest in reducing the power of Wall Street, both at the rank-and-file level and at the level of union bureaucrats. That immediate back-against-the-wall issue probably motives their alliance more than a long-term strategy at this point.

And it is not just unions and Democrats that potentially could co-opt the movement. Paulist libertarians have been instrumental in the organization of some Occupy Wall Street local movements and have used them as a vehicle for getting Paul’s anti-Fed message out. And Jesse Ventura has been sniffing around the movement.

But, we’ve already accomplished quite a bit.

DWS, another example of the death of irony.

Zinn’s read on any even remotely “successful” movement is a leaderless one. Leaders are too easily coopted. Think it’s brilliant that OWS has so far avoided the leader trap.

I’d like to give you props for your suggestion that a shutdown of social networking would logically lead more people to the streets, as well as for your, IMO, very astute observation that we may be ready for, and may be seeing the beginning of, the next evolutionary step, as per your link. And I am now glad that I did not copyright my (gratifyingly well received) comment in response to Jeff Kaye’s pessimism the other night, which you also linked.) Props likewise to kris and maydaze, who, IMO, have exactly the right take on this question of how much fututre planning we should be doing right now. I think Jeff is great at analyzing history in a scholarly way, but that risks missing the big picture. When in a burning building, would he jump? I wonder, but the rest of us and OWS seems to feel that jumping makes sense. Personally, I think the ultimate logic indicates a complete restructuring must happen to address this society’s ills, but although I pride myself on looking down the road as a way of life, looking too far down right now cannot be very productive. It may very well be evolution we are witnessing. Would the dinosaurs have been competent to predict and direct the development of mammals? I hope that Jeff will ask himself that question, as well.

To my fellow Michiganders – Occupy Detroit October 14th 4PM gather at the Spirit of Detroit statue, 6PM march to occupy Grand Circus Park.

This R. Corddray would be a much better one to head CFPB.

Dude, totally.

Much appreciated, rc.

Note to Dems: We’re getting angry now, because you didn’t get angry back then, when you could have done some good. Get the hell off my bandwagon.

A general strike would send an even bigger message to the elites and weather would be a non-issue. As long as you continue to work for the masah, you’ll be treated like a slave. Trumka should be calling for strikes instead of carrying Obama’s foul water.

If your motion requires a second, I’ll be glad to do so.

There is at least one aspect that’s funny, against PTB funny.

They thought that if they could get someone with a D label to lead the charge against tattered remnants of New Deal, they could get everything they wanted.

Instead, once peeps began to see thru O, the opposite seems to be occurring.

Sometimes ya gotta luv the law of the unintended outcome.

Jeff, well said.

Nonetheless, OWS may not have the answers … however, the energy to hear and the opportunity of asking the questions, the important questions, several of which you raise … MAY, now, be possible.

Putting forth “the” questions to “the people”, as a whole, has been virtually impossible for years because of the rigid control of the media, although the social networking of the internet has changed that somewhat, yet, now, the people are paying attention, more so every day, in a manner which time and “circumstance” has made critically necessary … in a personal “fashion” which simply was NOT possible … even a year ago.

As the times become ever more desperate, not simply for Americans, but for the majority of the world’s people, ideas which have been given short shrift will, perhaps, have broader hearing. For example, these times may well present an opportunity, if ever there were one, for psychologists, for instance, to actually help encourage a more sane, a more humane sense of “human nature” and human possibility …

No one knows what may come of this mobilisation of human connection and the understanding of shared and common plight … and, while history may suggest a dismal future for such attempts at democracy and self-determination, human necessity may very well insist upon something better … especially if the alternative IS, without any question, definitely nasty, brutish, and short …

DW

Um, no. Remember that voting infantilizes, like a pacifier.

We “should” (hate those hortatories, but there I am) each express our own sentiments in our own language.

An atomized generation ,divided by electrons that can be monitored , has found a way to reconnect face to face.

They talk and discuss with each other and reason together, both good things I hope you agree.

This is the guilt free generation. They don’t suffer the collective guilt of going off on a murder spree decided not for defense of our country but offense for our corporations. As the MIC became more mechanized it needs less triggerman as a ratio of destruction per man. That led to the disconnect with the bonding of the immorality of the killing fields. Vietnam freezes what should have been our proper responses to this day of endless senseless wars.

These kids get an overriding human bond we lost on the killing fields.

The media are as stupid as the fucking DemoVichycrats. The Dems had their chance to pass “Democratic policy proposals” and they chose to pass Republican ones instead. A super majority in one House and very close to one in the other and what did they do? Squandered it while passing a half assed version of Romneycare. I agree with eCAHN: Fuck the Dems, now and until the end of time. They have now joined Republicans in their affiliation being enough for me to vote for somebody else or just not vote.

(3) how the folks who make their living from information and information processing respond to the movement,

could you expand on this a bit?

Do agree with realitychecker’s linked message, that it is too soon, with too few historic precedents, to make any predictions.

I too made my career as an econ forecaster. But I had a lot of relevant data to analyze.

In this movement, not so much. Watching, learning seem to be the order of the day.

“Everything else is futile.” Apparently

Avaaz.org just passed 10 million international supporters. +572,000 signers at “The World vs Wall Street.”

To fellow citizens occupying Wall Street and peoples protesting across the world:

We stand with you in this struggle for real democracy. Together we can end the capture and corruption of our governments by corporate and wealthy elites, and hold our politicians accountable to serve the public interest. We are united – the time for change has come!

***

Some interesting content at http://www.livestream.com/canadarevolution .

rabble [Toronto, Canada]: “#OccupyVancouver? Look to Hong Kong housing activists for inspiration” (by Tristan Markle, Oct. 12, 2011)

Medium Close Up [Canada]: “CBC 0: The Government 0 (by Howard Bernstein, Oct. 10, 2011)

I don’t see how Democrats co-opt it. That would require actually DOING something and nothing terrifies them more than actually DELIVERING. If nothing else, it’s a movement that knows spin when it hears it.

That said, I don’t see how the Occupy movement can get any legs without finding some base of its own. It’s fine for awhile to just register dissent and outrage. Gawd knows, we’ve been waiting a long time for even that to happen. But the only thing that will move the amoral valueless Democratic Party is denying it votes. But even then, the hapless D’s may just decide to move to the RIGHT. So, some base among middle Americans is going to be essential before long.

I’m with and RC. My response was more geared toward Jeff’s continuing assertion that there needs to be a message or a demand. My interpretation of the current movement is that demands would be harmful. Focusing the occupations right now on a single issue would cause schism and kill momentum. With a broader message of unification and dissatisfaction we will continue to reach more and more people.

OUTSTANDING READ KEVIN!

Great summary after the Hardball review, which was great.

Thanks for all you are doing.

BTW, if you’ve noticed, Egyptian grass roots movement is prolly dead. U.S. mucking about looking for their next puppet for “the prize” in the ME, and internal Egyptian PTB have conspired to kill it, as evident in Copt massacres.

Ok…

That should not have happened. I will fix when I get to where I am staying.

“Angry At A System Rigged By Both Parties”

That’s the crux of the biscuit right there. It’s no use complaining about Republicans: they’re all insane and we’ve all known that for a very long time. But they’re NOT the majority!! So the REAL issue is that there are alleged Democrats who are consistently opposing progressive legislation or progressive ASPECTS of legislation, thereby scuttling or sabotaging all attempts at economic recovery and jobs creation. Republicans are not really the problem, Democrats who vote like Republicans are the problem.

Ben Nelson, Jon Tester, Mary Landrieu, Kent Conrad, Max Baucus, Joe Manchin, and Joe Lieberman, for example. Democrats scuttled the public option, not Republicans. The total failure of the progressive agenda during the Obama administration is NOT the result of Republican obstruction, it’s the result of Democratic obstruction!!!

Harry Reid has some authority. Psuedo-Democrats who support the Republican agenda should have no committee assignments, let alone chairmanships. It’s stupid to put the enemy in charge.

Occupiers should point out that the Senate has refused to even consider jobs creation, and that the deciding votes were “Democrats”.

OWS has as much beef with the Democrats as the Republicans. Killing the jobs bill is not “principled opposition”, it’s deliberate, purposeful economic sabotage. And SOME Democrats made it happen.

“…the undue influence of monied interests on the political process…”

Enable by political parties, politicians and campaign contributions from now undisclosed donors? Is that how slave owners protected their institution of slavery, i.e. people are property? Money as speech? Corporations are people?

As my wealthy pal said to me the other day. The Vichycrats and the Retardicans have only one job now and that’s to protect his ( class’s) MONEY. As far as he’s concerned, so far they’ve done a decent job. As for the 99% and their money not so much. The predatory classes ( the foxes) are now in charge of the hen house.

I like to think this movement,if such it is, is in response to numerous ills and misdeeds facing us, as I noted on a previous post. I only hope the kids out there can keep it going. I see no other way to fix our corrupt society. How does a society allow 46 million live in poverty and 50 million without health insurance and 24 million unemployed and say it is just?

scorched earth policy…..

Yep, just a gathering of like minded folks who have been or are being screwed over and are tired of it.

The policies and platforms can wait for now, ever for a year.

As the movement grows simply from its own accord, pressure is brought on the system to adapt/change, FORCED PRESSURE, without any agendas.

I really believe change has already begun, huge change . . . we’re just seeing the first ripples . . .

Nice read, I like the history components for sure.

But see my #61.

*G*

Corporate Sodomy, enabled by the undue influence of monied interests on the political process!

Badda bing!

Our history to date has been one of leaders controlling the masses and with a few exceptions it has sucked for the masses. If history shows anything is that this movement need to avoid having leaders. WTF do we need them for? There are ways that can devised where everyone can participate and have say on what matters. Sure we will need people to execute these things, but we can put tight controls in that they do not turn that into taking power. We can do this, and if other countries also start to initiate this we can change the planet so it works for us and we work to protect her.

This is not some utopian dream because the truth is and some are more aware of this than others we live on a finite planet, with finite not infinite resources We better learn to adapt that as it is showing clear signs of maxing out

OWS people are not ignorant and definitely not apathetic. It is easy for them to see the Democrats for what they are. Agents of the 1%. Neither the legacy Parties nor the corporate media have any influence with people who are awakened. The Oligarchy is busy trying to prevent the collapse of Western Capitalism at the same time that they are losing control of the people. Personally, I don’t think we should ask anything of the people who want to enslave us. I think we should destroy them.

Damn, Petro, I just read this comment!

That was some incredible comment hoss, well done!

*slides a double 12 yr. old single malt down bar at Petro*

honestly the dems and repubs have been two sides of the same coin for a long time. It took Obama who came in on the promise of so much HOPE, for people to see that and wake up. Guess in a perverted sense O is a patron saint of the movement. I am not sure if PTB knew that when they selected him or have been left footed by this. my sense is they have planned for all possible outcomes. What will they do next? not sure, but believe me it is coming?

I’m sorry if I didn’t respond to you before, Petro. It was not intentional, but an artifact that often I am at work, and am dipping into the discourse when I have some time, only to be buried for hours later, then honestly usually forget to get back, or some other project — like my mainly ignored article on the UN report on Afghanistan torture — takes priority.

My response to you is this: I do not believe in the “rejection of authority,” in so far as one rejects the concept of authority, or hierarchy. Nor is it true that there is no authority in nature, as you maintain. While we should be careful about using any human-derived concept to describe animal behavior, certainly even in our closest primate cousins we have organizations by led by dominant members of the group, and yes, those lower-down in the hierarchy of the troop of chimps, or whatever, submit to the will of the dominant male (or sometimes dominant female).

On the other hand, there are examples of other primate organization, including a kind of communal fission-fusion organization among bonobo chimps, and even what appears to be family organized groups among siamangs, etc. The argument to nature, in other words, is not convincing, and we humans must to some degree create our behavioral norms.

That’s not to say there aren’t psychological givens among humans. One of them, the need to feel secure and safe, which is embedded in most creatures, and neurologically represented by the fight-flight mechanisms in the autonomic nervous system (exactly the aspect of the nervous system that is chronically overstimulated in PTSD, or in torture victims), has a lot to do with the expression of many behaviors. It’s my belief that it is the underpinning for the relatively conservative nature of societies, or resistance to rebellions, for instance. In general, in history, large-scale changes don’t occur unless a critical mass of individuals in the society believe they don’t have much to lose.

Chronic fear of instability can be mobilized by the right-wing, as well, and is the sociological-psychological base of the fascist movements of the past 90 years.

I could be wrong. I could be very wrong. But I’d think a little humility in the face of the difficulty of the tasks facing us is in order. I’ve witnessed both in my 50+ years, and have read much history regarding the previous 200-300 years to know that changing society and challenging entrenched social powers is no game. History is riddled with the corpses of those who tried, both actual corpses and the political types. Enthusiasm is essential for change, and it appears OWS has won that among the rising wing of the young generation. But my question remains, where is “public rebellion” headed. I don’t expect Kevin to answer, or to even know. Or anyone. But it’s a question that we should be considering as event move forward.

As to realitychecker’s riposte: “How many lives will be lost if corporate domination continues unchecked? You get my point? There is a dance to be played out, how much public support can be garnered, as opposed to how quickly will the PTB unleash deadly force. It’s a dynamic whose exact contours we cannot know at this point. But we know that a refusal to risk the dance will be tantamount to agreeing to slow death. So, let the youngstrers dance, it’s their future at stake, after all, and help them with guidance and any other help you can offer, and pray that they get it right.”

That’s not too different than what I’m saying. But I am very concerned as well with the lives involved in these protests. Right now, the costs of such protest are relatively small (unless you’ve been pepper sprayed or tasered, where the potential health risks are real). But if you have worked with people who have had their loved ones disappeared, or been themselves tortured horribly for their political stands and allegiances, then you gain a healthy respect for the importance of taking great care over tactics. If anything, the left has always often been too cavalier with its human capital. Every protester is precious, and a special individual who is acting on some kind of higher social consciousness. But that doesn’t mean, especially right now, that the mass of individuals carry the social memory of past battles and lessons learned from them. The future will be won by both young and old acting together to multiply their strengths.

Nucely done!

*2opposablethumbsup*

Thank you very much, Kevin for exploring in detail what supposed liberals are saying about the OWS phenomenon. It is, I think a partial elevation of the discourse for them to be admitting that the movement is disaffected with “both parties” but there is still a very long way for the conversation to go – and to my mind these ‘folks’ are digging in their heels; they will have to be dragged forward kicking and screaming to admit the real situation as evidenced by OWS having to happen in the first place.

That is, it is not simply about the greed of Wall Street combined with ditto for Congress. This has been an orchestration which still cannot be touched with a tenfootpole – that the two parties HAVE COLLUDED.

Even Ron Reagan wants to maintain the myth:

The Republicans may be more egregiously in the hip pocket of Wall Street and the bankers but the Democrats are too.

They Don’t Get It…
http://occupychi.org/2011/10/12/they-dont-get-it/

When the media talk about Occupy Wall Street, they often do so with disdain: a movement that has no leaders, no set of demands, can’t be taken seriously.

That will come, it’s too soon yet . . . catch on to that fact, it’s too soon.

For now the snow ball is rolling down hill slowly gaining mass. Takes time for it to become big enough to go really fast and get really big.

Just join in the pushing of the snowball, the rest will come to us.

In the meantime, just having ANY people pushing the snowball, is huge change at the door of the 1%.

WE THE 99% ARE THEIR DIRE WOLF!!!!

(already)

They totally undocumented lives lost thru neglect do not bother you? Why should only visable casualties count.

Should be quotation marks around the last sentence in 71, sorry.

Fuck the fucking fucks, ALL of them fucking fucks.

Alrightalready!

*slides a double 12 yr. old single malt down bar at Petro*

Eagerly accepted.

Sweet.

*bows*

Jealous. All I got in the cocktail hour was a martini.

Whine alert.

I spent so much time today moving firewood from woodbin to next to house, I made myself not only tired, but sick to my stomach. I am still in lousy shape owing to bummer weather.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Points all taken – I just want to point out that your selection of the higher primates as examples of authority in nature doesn’t quite work for me. Those creatures have a pretty highly-developed cognition layer, so are subject to many of the same self-created psychological realities. Now, if you had mentioned ants or bees, I might have to work harder.

(By the way, I do remember your Albarelli book salon, and have respect for you as a thinker and writer.)

I believe the Egyptian protesters made the great mistake of settling for too little, in accepting an exchange of Mubarek for his sympathetic military cronies. If OWS can gain the whip hand to similar extent, I hope they will take the lesson and drive a much harder bargain, if “bargain” be required at all.

I didn’t take that away from his post. But he is being cautious which, I suppose, is what you are reacting to?

What I don’t understand about the alpha male model, while fully in agreement that’s how humans are evolutionarily wired, is why it is pro-survival. It didn’t work out so well for the chimps.

Yeppers. Gotta (there’s that hortatory again) avoid selling out for crumbs.

Just reacting to invisible, but knowable (there must be a Rumsfeld buried in that phrase somewhere) damage caused by current system. They require just as much accountability & consideration as the ones we can see.

The future will be won by both young and old acting together to multiply their strengths.

Agreed, I’d point out the older boomers are already on the front lines of Occupy with the youngers and the others . . . let’s not dismiss the older boomers . . . they are in this game and have been ready to play it . . .

From Nixon to Obama . . . ’68 to ’11.

Include 8 faux years of Clinton’s sell out despite our growth then, ya got some 43 years of failures to care for the masses.

That shit’s gonna bite back one way or another as history proves.

Right now, Occupy is nibbling, it is too soon to determine if Occupy will be the initiator of the Big Chomp coming that history tells us is inevitable.

Very interesting, astute observations, TD. I have often thought the OWS reminded me of jaqueries, albeit of the non-bloody variety. Actually, Marxist theoreticians, especially Marx himself, looked long and hard at the history of what they called the petit bourgeois or peasant uprisings and revolutions. Marx’s writings on the 1848 revolutions, mostly democratic rebellions against the remnants of absolutism (and some nationalist uprisings, too), are worth reading, for those looking to gain some lessons from the past to apply creatively to the new, but not entirely new, circumstances of the present.

In fact, it was from examining the peasant and sans-culottes rebellions that the early Marxists determined that the state apparatus could not be reformed, but had to be dismantled, and replaced with a new state apparatus that operated in protection of collectivized property (means of production, not people’s iPads or clothing). The police were in the pay of the state, and so long as that state protects the property rights of its ruling class or elite, they are agents of that state.

Finally, any serious student of revolution and radical change has to have studied the nature of counter-revolution and ruling class oppression. Unless one plans for that, “slow death” will be preferred to the Iron Heel that will come down upon all of our skulls. In many ways, the deformations of Leninism were foreordained because it was itself a response to organizing radical work in absolutist Tsarist Russia, under the eyes of its pervasive secret police, the Okhrana. They had to be hard and conspiratorial to achieve their aims. We may not need that. In the end, Leninism gave way to its bizarro cousin, Stalinism, where politics became all about paranoid struggle (or maybe not completely paranoid, as Nazisim grew up right along side it).

I’ve been thinking lately we need something between the Fabian strategy of holding back and only acting when there’s an opening and when and where they are weak, and a bold strategy necessitating strong organization and bold, but strategic action. Of course, the OWS campaigns may have preempted all of my little ideas and conceptions. I’m open to that. In the end, who cares what I think? But I care about change and making it happen. And while I am not in a place where I can abandon my patients to take up the time to seriously intervene in the OWS itself, I do think it’s worth noting my thoughts and criticisms as I can. They can be ignored, or they may offer some food for thought for those interested in advancing the struggle towards real, lasting change.

I certainly agree with that.I like to think OWS has at least an acquaintance with that reality.

*slides a double 12 yr. old single malt down bar at eCahn*

And another one to Petro, RealCheck, Kevin G, n to all the others in this thread who ‘get it’ so well.

Proud to be a Firebagger.

*poursselfone*

What are you talking about? All waste of life bothers me. And capitalism wastes lives with the wanton disregard of schoolyard children kicking apart anthills and traipsing over flowerbeds. (Shakespeare caught the idea, replacing MOTU for “Gods” — “Like flies to wanton boys are we to the Gods. They kill us for their sport.”

Shorter Schultz:

Republicans think corporations are people. Democrats, on the other hand, think people are consumers.

Once peoples’ movements get started, there’s no telling where they will go. Many turn out to be counterproductive, a few improve real lives of real people.

I read a biography of Pol Pot a couple of years ago. Being a history moron, I knew nothing of some of the implications of French revolution. Apparently what Pol Pot took away from his studies in Paris, while in exile, was that if you didn’t radically transform society in a short period of time, the momentum would be lost.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Thank you very much!

I could be wrong but I think she said that.

You said:

The people have woken up. They won’t go to sleep because they realize the last option they have for improving their lives and the greater society is public rebellion. Everything else is futile.

I really, really hope you are right -

The alpha male model seems particularly adept at wasting everything. Political or economic system seems secondary to that. Thus my comment at 83.

You do not negotiate or bargain with eco-terrorists dressed in suits. These are the people who have challenged the rule of law with money and influence, to the detriment of the republic. They buy law. They have created the moral hazards Jefferson feared and Lincoln lamented. And yet with all the suffering in America, they still continued to protect their economic interests, as slave owners protected exploitation of the slave’s energy. $147.50 p/b Oil decimated America. The Ponzi Scheme and house of cards came a tumbling down. Great job Wall Street and Executive Oil!

Jeff your observations of history forget to mention one thing – Money.

Thanks.

As you can tell, I’m very leery of making comparisons from nature to human sociological concepts, like authority. Talking about the ants reminds me of the great Sociobiology debates from the 1980s.

Probably, my own take on the idea of radical action has been more affected by my work with torture victims than I have thought, and it’s something I’m thinking hard about right now… a kind of vicarious bowing to oppression. Someone here said I should right an article, but I’m limiting my thoughts on all this right now to comments, and to reading what I can. It’s a way of testing my own thoughts and seeing what I think. I also would worry that right now, when OWS is under attack in many areas, that any higher profile critique, even if well-intended and coming from the left, will be used by the State or the right-wing to discredit OWS protesters. That would be the last thing I would want. When CNN or their ilk say “what do the protesters want?” they are trying to discredit them? When I say “what does rebellion mean? where are you headed?”, I’m trying to help sharpen the movement, and hopefully move it to the left. I don’t want that to get mixed up.

There’s an unspoken strategy at play here, I think – the strategy is the memes. There are several floating around. The most potent one I think is the concept that a democracy on sale to the highest bidder is not a legitimate form of government. It’s right up there with the divine right of kings.

Pol Pot, who was long supported by the United States, by the way, even after the massacres in Cambodia, came to power due to the chaos created by the destruction of Cambodian infrastructure in the wake of mass carpet bombing of that country by the United States. In fact, the massacres were largely carried out by very young “comrades”, sometimes children really, after Pol Pot purged the historical leadership of the Khymer Rouge.

You are right that people’s movements can turn counterproductive (though usually this is after they have been very thoroughly compromised by a very harsh counterrevolution, as in the old USSR).

The French Revolution’s Reign of Terror is often used as the great example of a people’s uprising gone bad. I’ve always liked Mark Twain’s view on this issue, and think it’s applicable today:

“There were two ‘Reigns of Terror’, if we could but remember and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passions, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon a thousand persons, the other upon a hundred million; but our shudders are all for the “horrors of the… momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty and heartbreak? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief terror that we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror – that unspeakable bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.”

Mark Twain, writing about the French Revolution,
in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court

I like that. I like it a lot.

I believe that the Occupiers are exactly on target by not having demands. Their message seems very clear to me – it’s Jesse Jackson’s quote “I AM SOMEBODY” – and the PTB had better hear it or the consequences will be great.

I’m sorry, but I’m laying this one down at the feet of the ladies, evolutionarily speaking (not advocating! Just speaking of primal impulse, of which I can personally testify is transcendable.)

Even in “modern” humanity, women still subconsciously (I don’t like that word, BTW) select for assertiveness and confidence in male partners. That this becomes distorted is only to be expected, as it remains, for the time being, largely subconscious in males as well. We’re just preening for your attention, truth be told.

It’s not exactly pro-survival, except in effect – it just means that this otherwise destructive trait is more likely to reproduce itself.

Richard Dawkins writes about how otherwise counter-survival risk-taking behaviors, like jumping out of planes to taking drugs, reflect this.

Ah, the Divine Right of Money, athena?

Yes, it’s right down there with the divine right of knaves …

;~DW

Do you mean to say by that that we should press whatever advantage the OWS gains us?

I’m not writing full essays here, just making comments. But as to money, is it not the mystified representative of all value, hiding behind its “objective” presentation, all the hideous aspect of social inequality, the exploitation of labor and nature, and the social relationships that tie the whole system together in a way that reduplicates it from generation to generation. That’s truly Marxian, I know, but I think it’s as true a representation as we will ever get. (I know Marx further examined money in it form as Captital, i.e, as money it intervenes in the world and seeks to replicate itself, and further expand the sphere of influence of its national ruling class, e.g. the American capitalists, the French capitalists, etc.)

Money to most means profits for some, and poverty for the rest. Behind the impassive face of Washington on the dollar bill lies a most vigorous and deadly struggle for existence between a myriad of social actors.

I personally suspect that the more egalitarian pre-human hominids were killed off by us.

My response was only meant as a reply to those who fear social uprisings because some of them have had a net negative effect.

what does rebellion mean? where are you headed?”

well therein is the problem. Even if their are desired outcomes, the very nature of rebellion means chaos, and goals changing and shifting depending on the forces that rise and fall. At some point the fight will wane, people tired, suffering from huge loss, gravitate to what looks like the leaders. the problem with rebellions is that people have focused on taking out the perceived power structure, kings, queens, presidents, while leaving the real power structure in place, which is ultimately a few people regardless of what name they give themselves controlling the masses. that is what I have learned from reading and thinking about history

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz is clueless. OWS are no fans of hers.

BTW, there is a call for a global occupy your city for this Saturday. Time to get off of the side lines and march.

Poetically superb, Jeff, not to mention a solid blow right between the lies.

On with ya!

DW

Maybe the power structure needs to be changed. We would probably need something like the House of Representatives. But instead of a President, perhaps five people to oversee the whole thing.

Indeed, DO NOT be Lulled BACK to SHEEP!

Maybe, but that’s pretty dark if you think about it. That means that being egalitarian is the weaker arrangement. I’m going to have to reject that, even if it’s just (irrationally) on faith.

Perhaps we can say (rationalize?) that even if they were more egalitarian (which is quite a conjecture), they probably had some other more consequential weakness…

This one could also turn out badly for some people and may net nothing at all. I can only hope it leads us somewhere. As athena said above the government we have now is not legitimate, it is on sale to the highest bidder.

From http://www.ustream.tv/channel/october2011 :

Still raining in DC.

Following the General Assembly, all are invited to join the discussion of the ways that concentrated corporate capital dominates the political process and what it will take to change that.

“Discussion of Corporatism” will (scheduled to) occur next.

Calender

There are a lot of service workers who move information–accounting clerks, claims processors, web designers, network administrators, and so on. They have to this point not been considered “workers” and have not considered themselves workers, which they have reserved for blue-collar workers. Organizing them has as a result been difficult until now. Public employees in these categories have been organized, but not so many private employees. These are some of the people who have been outsourced and laid off over the last decade and face ever more wage and benefit pressure. Typically they have been aligned with management or neutral. Has the current situation changed that? Will they start showing up to occupy places?

Behind the impassive face of Washington on the dollar bill lies a most vigorous and deadly struggle for existence between a myriad of social actors.

behind the dace of washington lies just a few actors. the Fed, the banking cartel, debt based money and fractional reserve. A system by its very design means a few have control, and that X percent will fail, and the rest will be running on the treadmill trying to stay one step ahead. Money is not the problem is how it works and how it is controlled by the few that is problem

not sure what structure we need, but am pretty sure it must not put power in the hands of a few

Strongly agree. Your previous comment as well.

The President has far too much power right now. And has used it against the people. I think of the five I mentioned as being like managers with no authority to act alone.

Thanks.

As usual, Twain gets to the heart of the matter.

On book salon this past weekend, I was trying to put the U.S. failed history of “national building” in context, which is abject failure at almost every turn. Author hit me with Pol Pot, Hitler, list of other horribles, in response. I rejoined: Yes, but they were at it for only a few years, while colonies/U.S. has been at it for half a millennium.

Obama and his gang of crooks, including Republicans, needs to see this simple video to understand what Occupy Wall Street is all about:

Alan Grayson Shreds P.J. O’Rourke on #OccupyWallStreet
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/econ-101-alan-grayson-schools-pj-orourke

Don’t need to place evolutionary behavior in any one location. It is what it is.

I’m looking at the system as a whole & wondering if, or why, it might be pro-survival. It certainly doesn’t look that way to me.

lizpelly liz pelly
by caulkthewagon
The mainstream media called anarchist occupiers “trouble makers” but anyone who spends even just a day @ #occupyboston knows this is false.
41 minutes ago

Well, yeah, it’s dark. The fact that the patriarchy is probably the result of evolutionary psychology is dark right off the bat.

There’s an argument to be made that dominant males in general do a better job of reproducing themselves (the resources devoted to their offspring are more likely to go to their actual children – and the less controlling males more likely to unknowingly be providing for some other dude’s kid.)

Yeah, that’s the usual argument. The 1%ers win bc they win. But is that useful for society as a whole is the Q I’m asking.

Well argued, Jeff. I would point out that “infrastructure” is a category that can point to the collectively held means of production. The practical debate then is what plant and equipment is practical to bring into that. It has been routine in the capitalist countries to treat utilities, communication, transportation, education, and even health care as part of those means of production. So the debate ceases to be a theoretical one and becomes a search for what else needs to be included.

And since the inventions of fractional horsepower motors, electrical motors, and electronics, there is a large base of personally owned means of productions–lawn mowers, sewing machines, personal workshops of all types, kitchen equipment, personal computers, and so on. So the practical issues become how to mix collectively owned means of production (infrastructure), household means of production, and this gray area that tends to be populated by local cooperatives.

My sense is that the general assemblies will not debate these differences between household, cooperative, and public infrastructure, they intend to go out and do them. And by doing them suck demand from the currently existing structures. And that instead of attacking the state, they will be defending their transformations of the economy. But that is way down the road if it happens. But that practical direction is where the general assembly activities in NYC seem to be moving. Everyone else is defending their public space or preparing to secure it at the moment.

got it thanks.

The 1% win because we have never changed that. In fact the original message of OWS is brilliant and is the only demand. how do we create a society where it is not controlled by the few? that is the leap forward otherwise it more of the same. “meet the new boss same as the old boss and potentially worse”

Thank you Kevin. Well said!

I think Reagan captured my concerns fairly well. Both sides are corrupt and as Newt said, the fix is in!

I’m a Republican who feels as though I’m both a Tea Party sympathizer and OWS sympathizer.

The system is corrupt. And while not all elected officials are as corrupt as my former Senator, Chris Dodd, most of the rest remain silent. For that reason, they are all part of the problem.

There is a corollary to that even more pervasive. And that is the divine right of managers. And it is hard to disentangle even for those managers who want to move away from it. It has to do with ideas about decisions and command and closure of argument.

All true. Having observed individual transcendence of these tendencies, I have a strong vision of “tipping-point” collective transcendence. If you look at the Earth as an organism – as I do – then we are merely one aspect of what she has thrown up. The aspect that represents her self-awareness. If this crazy idea of mine is true, then I would say that the world is currently experiencing that dangerous phase of adolescence we all experience on our personal micro scale. Maturity is at hand, as it were – if we survive Dad loaning us the car keys.

To note: The “collective transcendence” idea is not as mystical as it sounds. There is an unspoken consensus in how we educate our children. Once that consensus tips from educating for “productivity and survival” to “healthy and happy being” I think that the consequences will be palpable and written in the history books as an epoch shift.

As I’ve said before, I have never thought of this as something happening within my lifetime. I wouldn’t even think of advocating such nonsense right now – pearls before swine and all that, to put it crudely. But to bring the discussion back to #OWS… I am more than willing to keep watching and listening to this new political awakening that is unfolding right now. I’m willing to be surprised!

Fighting with intellect against a behavior that is alleged to be hard wired into human limbic system.

Why you wake up in the middle of the night, slapping your forehead & saying: Oh, that’s what I should have said to the judge.

Emotions rule human behavior much more immediately & powerfully than intellect. I don’t know much about evolutionary biology, but that’s one of my takeaways.

A most-superb comment, TD.

Might I add these thoughts?

“Infrastructure”, if we are culturally honest, is also known as the “commons” or, more precisely, as the “commonwealth”.

We, as a culture have separated “money” from the actual production of “wealth”, by a process now termed “vulture capitalism”, a process which is NOT concerned with “production”, merely with pillage …

Such a “system” can not be sustained and values nothing, recognizing nothing as genuine “resource” and denying such a quaint notion as “responsibility” and even the reality of functioning society.

Society being understood simply as being how individual members of a “group” treat other individuals of that “group”.

DW

Even darker: the patriarchy bone might be tied to the genocide bone on some sort of neurochemical level. So in terms of survival and nothing more, there could be advantages.

Good points, DW.

I would like to suggest that everyone take a moment to step back and consider the incredible quality of the interactions taking place on this thread. I cannot adequately capture in words the strength and depth of emotion that is my natural and spontaneous reaction to the sense of privilege, bonding, and inclusiveness I get from knowing that I am an integral part of this wonderful group and an equal participant in the kind of group dynamic we can generate at times like this. I wish I could reach out and hug each and every one of you.

You and TD are rocking the house as well as rc, eCAHN & athena1. Not to mention mswinkle. I am loving watching this discourse.

What you said.

Can you rec any books on the subject? It’s one of the Ongoing themes rustling about in the back of my brain that I would like a more thorough understanding of.

and once again it comes back to how money works for a few at the detriment to the many

Thirded.

All I’ll say is that I have met whole human beings regardless of the variations in the features of their bodies. One very important factor appears to be a loving, protective mother with whom these have (had) a mutually respectful and loving relationship including the support from a group of different adults that, as a cooperative, model(led) aspects of what it is to be a whole human being. The American society has a system of forcing or torturing individuals into partitions of “pink” or “blue” and subsequent processes of partitioning. There’s even a system for supporting the suicide of or killing of individuals that don’t conform. The MSM talking points regarding the people at #OWS is transparently similar to that used for indigenous peoples in previous times. There really are other cultures than the American one and that don’t operate this way but right now they are on the corporate hit list for extinction.

The #Occupy Boston GA is live and taking clarifying questions including [paraphrase] how to include the concerns and needs of indigenous people.

No, but do you know how to use google scholar? You can find lots and lots of awesome free texts in there, like this:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=5513845387214775541&hl=en&as_sdt=0,43&as_ylo=2008

Don’t like google for a lot of things, esp in-depth work. I have no way to judge the quality of what comes up.

On edit: And ‘scholar’ has come to be a 4-letter word with me. I went thru my grad work in econ completely unaware of the real agendas of “scholars.”

No, Google SCHOLAR. It only indexes actual scientific journals.

http://scholar.google.com/

http://scholar.google.com/advanced_scholar_search?hl=en&as_sdt=0,43

It’s laid out to where you can easily track down what cites what (to see if a previous hypothesis has been debunked, confirmed, expanded, adjusted, etc.)

Many have made very excellent points here tonight. They are all food for extended thought. I would like to addresss specifically two points raised by Jeff Kaye. As preamble, I want to say to Jeff directly that I have great respect for your obvious intellect and the obvious depth of your learning and knowledge. I know what kind of commitment is required over a lifetime to get what you have shown and shared with us, here as well as in many other places. And I have observed an evolution in your thinking on these issues just in the last two days and even just today. Evolution at work and on display. First point, as to nature and its authority. We are the most adaptable species ever. Until the first power mechanism came along a mere 200 years ago, all human life was shaped by similar and familiar parameters. With the advent of radio, TV, and computer technology, life was again changed radically for all who had access to those things. I am but a few years older than you. Think about the changes we have lived through in a mere half century! With that record of accelerating change and adaptability, which continues unabated, there is no reason to think we are bound to the old patterns as a lower species would be, such that they became extinct when they could not adapt to changing conditions. We are the master adapters. We can overcome our basic biological natures thru a combination of intellect, enlightenment achieved through communication and unprecedented exposure to new and better ideas, and the synergistic benefits realized from the ongoing incorporation of improved circumstantial situations as we go along. We just need to doubt ourselves less and embrace each other more, as a conscious determination and commitment. And have a little faith.

Second point has to do with the lives lost/lives saved point. We have a very strange way of doing the accounting on life. I detect in your writing what seems to me to be an exaggerated valuation of the lives that are lost quickly in a rebellion, and probably as well of loss of life and pain to those you have a personal connection with. That’s natural, but it is purely emotional. If you would apply your intellect to modulate your emotions, you would quickly realize that the present structure and heirarchy of our society regularly results in loss of life of a magnitude that boggles the mind. Not only the value of those killed outright, but also suffering early diseased deaths, from war, pollution, various products, hopelessness of spirit leading to suicide, etc., etc., etc. Your Mark Twain quote really makes the point better than I can, and the fact that you used it says to me that you are probably already absorbing this truth into your views. It is a peculiar feature of our psychology they we can easily downplay or dismiss the deaths that happen out of our sight or to those we are not in privity with, but an honest accounting requires that all those deaths be given equal weight. (Corporations never do that honest accounting.) In that light, loss of life in an effort to change a hopeless situation into a hopeful and just one is just another of those tragedies, but with the crucial difference that they are incurred willingly and knowingly, by individual choice, for a positive purpose, as opposed to the other kind, which is done for purely negative reasons, selfishness, hate, and greed.

I hear ya!

From the text crawl for #Occupy Boston live stream:

GA in Amherst, MA tomorrow.

On edit: And ‘scholar’ has come to be a 4-letter word with me. I went thru my grad work in econ completely unaware of the real agendas of “scholars.”

Most science is a lot more scientific than mainstream econ! Medical science has lots of issues, but stuff like evolutionary psychology and biology are pretty “pure”.

See my “on edit” addition.

In a field I know very little about, I am equally skeptical of scholars and random cites. This subject would be completely beyond my abilities to sort or what has been debunked or not.

Besides, am current reading (well, sort of reading) a book of academic essays on African pre-colonial history. Not learning what I hoped to by picking up the book, but what I am learning, since each subject subcategory is arranged by the editor mostly historically. So I do learn is that completely bogus ideas live in perpetuity in the scholarly world. Until something astonishing happens to alter the entire outlook.

About a decade ago, there was a NYT Sunday mag filled with essays about medicine. Pretty uninteresting for a subject that should be gripping. The one line I do remember is that half of what docs know is wrong. Trouble is, they don’t know which half. Have very little respect for “medical research,” even though I worked in the field after undergrad before switching fields to economics.

The power elite do not want to have to respond to those participating in occupations.

Why should they? At the moment they don’t even have to. I mean what exactly is compelling them to respond to these people whether they want to or not?

The power elite do not understand how disgruntled and resolute people occupying parks across the country happen to be.

Why should they? Exactly nothing about these protests are even the faintest inconvenience to the “power elite.”

These people have shown they are willing to put themselves in situations and risk arrest.

Which is kind of awful considering they’ve been risking arrest by putting themselves in situations that haven’t even remotely inconvenienced the “power elite” let alone seriously impeded them in any way at all.

I have to crash for the evening, owing to exhaustion from moving firewood today.

athena1, will check in tomorrow for additional comments & thanks for your suggestions.

You negotiate when you must or when it makes rational sense to do so. You do not negotiate if you are able to gather enough power and advantage in a situation to simply insist on getting what you want. None of us know where we will have to draw that line yet vis a vis the current situation.

Living things and systems go extinct, so they are not all pro-survival. We are living now in a way that is not pro-survival. Population growth plus limited resources plus despoilation of territory do not add up to a survival strategy.

I loved this post! I’ve been following the occupied movement and I think you’ve captured the sentiment of the 1% beautifully. They figure they can wait this out. I pray everyday that they are WRONG.

Good night, eCAHN.

It’s still early. The movement is only about a month old. I think it’s incredible that it’s gotten over 1000 cities participating. That being said the United States has 10s of thousands of cities. The movement hasn’t reached it’s collective tipping point yet.

I’m trying to understand why they would even care whether or not it goes away. How exactly is it adversely effecting them?

This is like saying that I pray every day that the office next door will eventually get rid of that terrible shag carpet. I don’t go in that office. I don’t work in that office. I don’t even know the people who are in that office. If they had shag carpeting with fringe that was a mile long I could care less.

Good night.

Regarding the scholars, certain sciences attract more zealots and quacks and exist within a system that selects out most of the non-zealots/quacks.

If you’re curious about patriarchy, the researchers studying evolutionary psychology in academia seem to be a lot closer to the ideal of Vulcan-like critical thinkers, like scientists in general are supposed to be.

I suspect the occupy aspects of the protests in the north east, including NYC, will whither in the roughest part of winter just because people will risk dying of hypothermia to maintain that. However, I believe the GA and people involved now will remain as active as they can, they’ll just be meeting some place in doors and when the snow isn’t so bad, will be out demonstrating.

The occupy aspect of occupies in the south and west will remain strong I hope as they don’t have the severe weather issues.

That said, even if there’s a bit of a lull in the roughest part of winter, it will come back full force as spring approaches again.

Yep. And it’s based on the fundamental ignorance of the fact that money is like manure. It works best when it is spread around.

The most shameful part of Mayor Menino’s raid on the #OccupyBoston camp was that he waited until 1:30 a.m. before ordering the police in to storm the protesters. This was shameful and slimy — because it was clearly designed to occur at a point in time that would minimize any press coverage. Most of the television crews had gone home for the night, and the morning’s papers had all been printed. In this way, the issue of a mass-arrest of 141 people was hugely minimized in the public’s mind.

I agree totally. By not listing so called “demands” straight away, those who have demands come under the umbrella. With so many complex, interrelated problems, that tent will need to hold all of them, or nearly all. How it goes forward from there is anyone’s guess. We stand in a time of great transition… but what we are transitioning into remains unclear. Thus, the ability to predict is clouded and unknown. I guess we can predict that we are in, and will continue to move more deeply into the unknown. Kinda exciting.

This, too, helps though, doesn’t it? It highlights the slimeyness of the Boston Governor. Perhaps this is a time that is akin to pulling back the rug of denial, and deceit, such that we see what is really there. It helps too, in getting more off the couch, off the computer and onto the streets. There will be a time when even we will find ourselves on streets, and physically involved.. or it will fail. But not today, methinks.

They care because it is a challenge to the whole entire left versus right, Republican versus Democrat dynamic. TPTB have the system sewn up as it stands right now because they’ve stacked the deck on both sides of the aisle. Step number one is identifying the problem(s). Alot of Americans are on Step one. I have faith that we’ll reach a mass to move on to step number two which is looking for a solution. I’d bet that the 1% is worried about that two. They consider the two parties, their no lose hedge our bets “investment.” That investment loses its value if we find ways to work around them.

Maybe, maybe not. Many people risked their lives to create this country. It’s entirely possible that with the donations that they’ve collected the movement is already on making sure they’re stocked on gloves, thermal underwear, sleeping bags, hot hands, and a hot cocoa supplier. They’ve rounded up medical coverage.

The media didn’t even report 144. Most of them reported it as 50. Appalling.

Seems I missed quite a convo here while I was at work, but I read all the comments from my phone, and my only comment is: I think the synergistic interplay of many thoughtful points of view and several basically miniature essays amounted to something akin to a virtual General Assembly, in spirit if nothing else. It’s taken time since OWS started but I see convergence of a lot of ideas into some type of general consensus here .

By screaming list your demands now they are hoping that they might be able to toss out a crumb or two to appease the masses or be able to belittle them and use it as a dividing technique and then move on back to the looting. It’s often worked in the past. By not listing any demands and allowing everyone an opportunity to list their gripes instead of limitimg it to a small focused area or a particular political belief set the movement has been able to grow. People are discussing their anger. Not everyone may have the same reasons to be angry but for the first time in a long time they really seem to feel its important to voice their dissatisfaction with the system that brought us here.

It’ll be amazing if some can hold out. I think it’d be foolish to consider it a failure or dead if they, for personal health/safety reasons, had to find some shelter temporarily. I wouldn’t want to put that pressure (to remain outside despite the dangers) on anyone.

The “occupy” is symbolic, the point is having some sort of constant presence, not just being a big 1-3 day protest that packs up and leaves as has been the standard for the past 20-30 years.

I would not be surprised if some of the younger ones tried to tough it out while encouraging those less hearty to seek shelter. From what I understand their fundraising for stuff like bail and camp gear has been very successful. With that in mind I could see them starting on asking for coats, gloves and whatnot and getting it. I could also see them toughing it out to make sure that the people up the food chain understand they ain’t going away.

Yes, indeed. Rs also. We can’t vote these sociopathic bastards out because we didn’t vote them in.

Adolph Hitler was elected with the backing of some big money so it is a thorny question whether a movement to restore a previous system of national governance is actually a revolution attempting to overthrow the government.

My own view is that the overthrow or meaningful reform of the existing system of economics, credit and banking would cause the problems of government to quickly self-correct.

That’s exactly what I’ve been noodling. Think the human race might be on an extinction path.

f you’re curious about patriarchy, the researchers studying evolutionary psychology in academia seem to be a lot closer to the ideal of Vulcan-like critical thinkers, like scientists in general are supposed to be.

Thanks. That’s the kind of evaluation I am looking for. As an outsider, I have no ability to know that for myself.

If so, the planet will cheer. And do fine without us. Next!