It began as a moment with only a few hundred US citizens demonstrating as close as they could get to Wall Street. The NYPD had fortified the financial district with structures transforming the area into a kind of Green Zone so no protesters would be allowed to demonstrate in front of the New York Stock Exchange or any other buildings in the financial district. This didn’t stop Occupy Wall Street. The people found a park nearby—Liberty Park, owned by Brookfield Properties—and they obtained “consent” from the owner to remain in the park.
Then, Joanne Michele, an occupier that has become well-known on Twitter under her handle @SabzBrach, tweeted, “It really does feel like a mini Tahrir Square.” People like The Nation’s Allison Kilkenny pointed out the protest had received a scant amount of media coverage and if the demonstration had been right wing it would have been given much more attention. And, labor journalist Mike Elk, staff writer for In These Times, noted, “For those decrying the size” of the occupation, the Wisconsin union “protests grew as the occupation of the capitol continued.”
One month later, the world is seeing how the movement that is becoming more and more powerful by the day has moved hundreds of Americans across the country to engage in civil disobedience in parks as they struggle to setup occupations similar to the one in New York. In the past couple of days, 175 Occupy Chicago participants were arrested. In Raleigh, North Carolina, 20 people were arrested on the steps of the State Capitol. In Arizona, nearly 100 were arrested—53 in Tucson and 46 in Phoenix. And, in Denver, 49 were arrested, after Denver riot police used pepper spray on Occupy Denver participants, who set up a “tent kitchen.”
So far, the movement has managed to withstand the “carrot” and “stick” approach of the powerful that is often used to squeeze the life force out of social movements. The “stick”—repression—has been employed by NYPD by white-shirted officers who threw occupiers around and violently arrested a handful in the first week for putting up tarps in Liberty Park, by Officer Antony Bologna who pepper-sprayed female protesters on September 24, by police who led 700 demonstrators onto the Brooklyn Bridge to unknowingly commit one of the largest acts of civil disobedience in recent history.
The Democrats have dangled the “carrot” of representation and increasingly indicated their “intention” to “support” the growing “Occupy” movement. The occupiers have been savvy, however, and opted to not meet with Democratic lawmakers. The occupiers have shown they understand the system is rigged by both of the two major US political parties, not just by Republicans. They have demonstrated that they are aware that the same Democrats that have offered their support are the same Democrats that have allowed and enabled Wall Street to protect itself from accountability for the 2008 economic collapse and the handling of taxpayer bailouts Congress granted to Wall Street banks. And, they have challenged the attempt by liberal pundits and Democratic Party politicians to cast the “Occupy” movement as a liberal or left-leaning Tea Party.
The media has also been part of trying to control and steer the “Occupy” movement. Members of the press have displayed scorn for the movement by constantly suggesting Liberty Park has become a place for stinky and smelly hippies to play bongos and drums and have sex and smoke pot and do drugs. They have gravitated toward topless women, who have been in the park using their bodies to express themselves politically, and tried to marginalize the occupation with images of topless women. This has not worked.
They have expressed their concern with the fact that Occupy Wall Street has no demands or message unifying them. They have suggested the occupiers do not know what they are protesting and that the leaderless movement cannot possibly go far. This has helped confuse the public, but it has not turned the public against the movement.
Criticism of Occupy Wall Street has been a way for the establishment media to defend their ideology on how politics is supposed to work. It is their way of affirming their conviction that at some point the children need to leave the streets and the grown-ups must be allowed to work in peace. Their criticism is part of the culture; expressing support for “hippies” or a “plurality of voices” preaching against capitalism, to them, can never win friends and influence people in the Beltway. So, they make criticisms whether there is evidence to support what is said or written.
Now, they write articles that open with the suggestion that the movement is aimless and unable to figure out where to go next. The reality is journalists, who open their stories on Occupy Wall Street with this concern, do not know where this will go next. They are projecting their anxiety onto the occupiers. They are expressing their angst over the pace of the occupation because they are lazy or tired of covering the “Occupy” movement already. They wish to tune out and move on to the next fad in journalism.
The truth is the occupiers have been very clear about where they stand. Any member of the press could easily understand where the occupiers stand by browsing through a copy of the Occupied Wall Street Journal. In the second edition of the occupation’s newspaper, they published their “Principles of Solidarity”:
On September 17, 2011, people from all across the United States of America and the world came to protest the blatant injustices of our times perpetuated by the economic and political elites. On the 17th we as individuals rose up against political disenfranchisement and social and economic injustice. We spoke out, resisted, and successfully occupied Wall Street. Today, we proudly remain in Liberty Square constituting ourselves as autonomous political beings engaged in non-violent civil disobedience and building solidarity based on mutual respect, acceptance, and love. It is from these reclaimed grounds that we say to all Americans and to the world, Enough! How many crises does it take? We are the 99% and we have moved to reclaim our mortgaged future.
The occupation has also addressed the media’s (and power elite’s) frustration with the fact that Occupy Wall Street has no “list of demands”:
Tens of thousands of New Yorkers streamed into Foley Square on Wednesday (October 4)—labor unions rolled out, students walked out. The occupation of Wall Street grew to resemble the city we live in.
What race, age, religion, occupation did we represent? None of them. All of them.
Barricaded in by steel pens, surrounded by a thousand cops and NYPD helicopters above, we saw our power reflected in their need to control us. But just as this is our movement, it is our narrative too.
The exhausted political machines and their PR slicks are already seeking leaders to elevate, messages to claim, talking points to move on. They are racing to reach the front of the line.
But how can they run out in front of something that is in front of them? They cannot.
For Wall Street and Washington, the demand is not on them to give us something that isn’t theirs to give. It’s ours. It’s on us. We aren’t going anywhere. We just got here.
The movement has succeeded where numerous liberal nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) have failed. They have changed the dynamics in a way that electing better progressive Democrats has not. So, cynics, skeptics and naysayers, who have tried to “predict” where the movement will go next or why it is likely to fail or how it will be virtually useless if it does not make getting out the vote in 2012 a top priority, should admit they have been wrong with all their observations and predictions and quit trying to pretend they understand what has been happening.
They now are able to win standoffs with the police and the city. The police were prepared to force the occupiers to leave Liberty Park for a “forced cleaning.” Brookfield Properties wanted to impose more rules and restrictions on what could be brought into the park. But, the occupiers were able to get the park owner to back off.
A day later, during a convergence in Times Square, an obscene amount of police were prepared to make a mass arrest. They had already rammed horses into the crowd and pushed barricades into demonstrators to move them out of the road. They had already yanked people over barricades and made arbitrary arrests of demonstrators. They had riot police in position, along with horses, and the white-shirted officers ordered the protesters to disperse or face arrest. But, they held their position and this time the police backed down. A high-ranking officer called off the dogs and, as Amy Goodman said on Democracy Now!, responded civilly to civil disobedience.
Occupy Wall Street has struck a nerve and there are no signs that it will be petering out soon. The powerful cling to the hope that the weather will turn cold and snowy during winter and bring an end to the uprisings developing all over the country. They don’t want their police forces to constantly be dealing with and arresting citizens engaged in civil disobedience because this is a populist movement that has tapped into broad-based anger in the country. Also, they do not want to take on the challenge or have to do the arduous work necessary to change the way they conduct business as usual.
But, too many people in this country have had their consciences awakened. Too many have been energized and inspired by the slogan, “We are the 99%,” that has reset the debate on income inequality and economic injustice in this country. In the words of Howard Zinn, “a power that governments cannot suppress” is rising up. This power is a worldwide movement and it will not go away without achieving some sort of economic justice for all.



251 Comments

I found two more locations that had Occupy events on Friday and Saturday beyond what I posted in the Day 29 Status of the Occupation comments.
These are Jonesboro AR and Valdosta GA (150 marchers). Both had local TV coverage.
Awesome piece, really, Kevin. Just the kinds of words that keep breathing life into the movement, just like the mass of heroes on the streets. Thanks for reporting from those streets.
Excellent history of the growth and the power of Occupy Everywhere.
Consider that 150 people marched Friday in Valdosta GA. Eight hardcore people met in a park in Greenville SC, Jim Demint’s home town, on Saturday and let the media film how small and strange a group they were. Twenty people on Friday rallied in Morgan Square, the center of Spartanburg SC. Twenty to fifty people have been occupying the South Carolina state capitol lawn (they use the lights for the Confederate memorial statue to help read during general assemblies) since Saturday and are livestreaming. And twenty or so mostly high schoolers occupied the Main Street of Boaz AL for about an hour and a half until they were cited for demonstrating without a permit. Add to that 100 or so marching in Tyler TX, Louis Goehmert’s Congressional District’s main city. Twenty or so people each in Paducah and Owensboro KY, and an active group in Clarksville TN near Fort Campbell, home of the 101st Airborne.
In the face of hostile tweets and Facebook comments and, in the case of Columbia SC, a Tea Party activist seeking to co-opt them.
Just to understand what folks in the South are up against, here are the comments on the TV report about 150 people in Valdosta.
Valdosta, Oxnard, Lompoc, Jonesboro,Spartanburg, Paducah, etcetera etcetera etcetera – should scare the foie gras out of MOTU’s everywhere
Kevin — it is a genuine pleasure to read your work – thank you and FDL for everything
Kevin,
I have been away taking care of my Mom for almost two weeks. I have tried to do everything possible to keep up with you while driving Miss Daisy.
I AM SO PROUD OF YOU! You have been the only journalist that remained intuned to full coverage of this history in the making since DAY ONE!
In the meantime:
I wish one of those Occupiers would respond to that demand question with this: “Demand what of whom? We have no representation and they have refused to give us a seat at the table.”
This is truely American style leadership from the people. I want to thank you for keeping every reader here at FDL informed.
New Chris Hedges interview, echoing sentiments similar to Kevin’s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-1TdemR7_Q
Kevin, you continue to make me proud, every day since the first.
Cornell West not being charged:
http://m.nbcwashington.com/nbcwashington/pm_107907/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=paZNS6QA
Thanks for the link – Hedges has been great with this movement.
He’s got a great article at truthdig today, too: A Movement Too Big To Fail
There’s a really good opinion piece on the CBC News website today, about the Occupy movement:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/10/17/f-pittis-occupy-economics.html?cmp=rss
A surprisingly healthy perspective from a business columnist, and certainly one you wouldn’t have heard a month ago! These protests are making a difference.
Exactly.
It is frustrating to have followed this movement since September 17 and to see the media publish pieces from journalists and pundits too lazy and too willfully uninformed to make the most cursory effort to describe the movement accurately.
Will the movement succeed? Pffffttt! It already has.
Apologies: there was an incorrect link from the FDL front page version of this post, which meant those posting the first three comments did not transfer here. If you were one of those first three, and you wonder where your comments from the front page went . . . please repost here. Thanks.
Taking a whack at DOJ? Hope so.
There have long been left-critics of American capitalism. They’ve mostly lacked an audience — till now. As long as OWS has an audience among common Americans, it will then have the capacity to push back against systems, institutions, organizations and individuals whose actions threaten the “lesser people.”
Also — Kevin will be continuing his live coverage from Occupy Wall Street beginning — we hope — about 4:00 p.m. ET or so, so keep checking for that next post.
Wanna bet the feds can’t “control” OWS?
http://www.mail.com/news/politics/770328-questions-linger-why-cia-operative-nypd.html#.7518-stage-hero1-10
A government where the people have lost control.
He’s been invited to the WH for a beer. It’s O’s attempt to coopt OWS.
Here’s good background with the CIA program with NYPD.
And if the CIA is involved in anything, it’s bound to be a failure anyhow.
A possible anthem for Occupy Wall Street movement?
Ry Cooder’s “No Banker Left Behind”
http://bit.ly/qxrRbr
So now what. OWS is beautiful. Do PTB & MOTU wait us out in hopes that they can do business as usual when we go home? Do they hire thugs disguised as Occupiers and start burning the place down? Do we have an end game? Where do we go from here?
I watched the Egyptian Revolution on AJE livestream. It was beautiful, too. Then it’s face was deposed and the institution he represented took over. Things are not looking great in Egypt. And I am skeptical that they will ever look great here. (though eternally hopefull that they will).
Donald Trump: #PeopleWhoHateFreedom
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/donald-trump-occupy-wall-street_n_1015765.html?ref=tw
I’m still trying to figure out what it is these protests are actually impeding or disrupting that the “power elite” substantially care about and control?
What reason would the “power elite” have to try and substantially crush the protests when they can go about their merry way effectively unimpeded all while letting people “get it out of their system” via these thus far harmless protests?
As many of us as possible get active. Visit or join one of the “Occupy” encampments. Or bring them food or other supplies. At the least, call the nearest pizzeria to the encampment, whip out your credit card and send ‘em some provisions. Tell everyone you know who might be sympathetic to help out. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
I agree. Lots of folks scrambling to get on the right side of history.
I like your post. I think that the American people have finally decided to stand up OR sit down and say, “I’m mad as hell and I won’t take it anymore.” And, it’s not just the USA. England, France, Italy.
The ongoing plunder of our society and the hyperconcentration of power in the hands of greedy, corrupt plutocrats. That was easy — got any hard ones?
5 pm ET – I will be streaming for at least an hour.
Annoncement: Kevin informs me that his next post with live blog and livestream will likely not start until 5:00 p.m. or so.. So check back then.
Well said. WE “made a difference” back in ’69 regarding the war in Vietnam. I say, we can do it again! We’ll just need some Geritol, Lipitor, some ibuprofen and heated socks.
Their public image, for one. They’re a preening lot.
Right now, your skepticism is valid. But, so what? This is why it is growing.
The age-old question must be asked, “Which side are you on?” I mean, are you constructively concerned or do you just think this all has not been working according to some plan you think would have been better?
The Wall Street cabal can be stopped by laws, many of which are already on the books but not enforced. This movement, OWS, is an arrow aimed straight at the heart of every politician in DC. They will get the message or they will be voted out.
Except that this isn’t the case at all. The operations of the banks and the government largesse enabling them hasn’t abated one bit… so….yeah?
That was a great article, thank you for linking. I loved this paragraph:
I keep looking at this sentence – It signaled a step backward by the corporate state in the face of popular pressure. Not political pressure. We are past that. Popular pressure. Pertaining to the people.
Something else Hedges said: “An ineffective liberal class means there is no hope of a correction or a reversal through the formal mechanisms of power”. We are in a new place.
To enlarge on my earlier response – one of the significant ways that the American public in general holds some responsibility in the current sad state of affairs has been their willingness to “look up” to these people as successes, rather than the exploitative greedheads that they are. On top of that, everyone believed they could Horatio Alger their way into their company.
Once that myth is shattered, it alters their relationship with the public in fundamental ways. In ways that they really would like to avoid.
Krugman
It seems like a lot of victory laps have been run by people cheerleading these protests, and the chants seem to center around some vague notion of the power of these protests, when the reality is that they haven’t even been remotely tested yet. No power centers have been disrupted, nor have any serious attempts been made to do so. As a result it’s completely unsurprising that the protests are allowed to go on with token opposition, because they’re not really bothering anybody.
I guess it bugs me because it seems like bathing oneself in symbolic victory at best and white-washing apparent impotence at worst.
I’m not even skeptical of the protests. I’m skeptical at all that’s being attributed to them in lofty rhetoric which seems grossly undeserved considering where the protests are currently at. If they managed to occupy the NYSE and disconnect the HFT data centers, and sustain such and action in the face of what would presumably be serious opposition, then it would seem a bit more warranted to lavish them with praise of their power and resolve.
At the moment they’re basically abiding by all the rules. At some point they’re going to have to start breaking them. When/if they do, and they succeed, then this sort of praise seems a lot more deserving.
Sadly, we live in a time when there is a distinction between political pressure and public pressure. It’s not supposed to work that way… so here we are.
I would call your attention to TD at 4 above for one. In general, the elite just don’t like anyone breaking into their time with some other story not approved by the Kochs or Murdochs. And they should be worried, just a little. Imagine what would happen if the 99% actually showed up at the polls one day. Could be a bad day for the elite. We will just have to wait and see. I hope these kids keep it up. We even have one in our little town, amazing.
Think I wrote this paragraph with people like you in mind:
Fixed.
“Jackboots? We don’t need any stinking jackboots!”
“Abiding by all the rules”?
You aren’t serious? If they are “abiding by all the rules,” then why are people getting arrested by the hundreds?
#OWS, 1979:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODCvbn_hUDI
They are succeeding because they have momentum. The success is happening, but it is not finished. In any movement there is a middle, and that’s where we are.
I don’t think they can do any real damage or the elite would just shut them down. They are now testing their staying power and ability to form a consensue. If that is successful, they can start to make demands that can be realized at the polls. Violence won’t work and we have shown that the dems and thugs don’t work either. Maybe the consensus has to come from the streets to both paries.
Wow. OWS is supposed to have fixed everything already?
Cool find!
That’s the point. At the moment, they are not impeding anything.
But what they are doing is beginning to mobilize people in unity across a lot of social divides and doing it in geographically dispersed way with not identifiable leaders. The phrase, “You can’t kill an idea” comes to mind. It is the idea that the MOTU/PtB are scared of. And they are scared that it will infect the 99% that currently follow orders to suppress any dangerous movement. Which is why the white-shirt police officers have been so prominent in the suppression; they are the ones with the most to lose, caught as they are between their subordinates and their superiors; they automatically want to preserve the status quo more than the PtB do.
Until I can lose 10 lbs in 3 days, get my children to always listen, and retain 100% control of the remote control, #occupy has failed./s
My observation (fwiw) is that the Occupy/wherever movement appears to be awakening a lot of citizens to how badly ripped off we’ve been by the 1%. There was a HUGE amount of complacency and complicity and compliance and identification with the 1% in this nation. OWS has served a purpose, at the least, in getting a larger segment of the populace to really “get” who the 1% are, what they are actually doing, and how they operate.
I am now – finally!- starting to hear some of my trad-Dem-voter friends question what’s really going on. And not be so slavisly devoted to Obama and/or the Democratic party… or even the Unions, in some cases.
To my mind, for this alone, OWS has been very successful. But I agree with a comment, above, that we are nowhere near the “end” of the OWS. I think this has to be viewed as something very long-term.
All power to the people!
Thanks for ongoing, really excellent reporting, Kevin. Well done!
OccupyCincy sues to occupy.
http://www.occupycincy.org/media-and-press
I guess we’re not clapping loud enough.
I suppose it is the sound of one hand clapping. Wake up and listen, you can hear it. It will grow louder.
Precisely.
Awesome. Great for Facebook to all your conservative friends, neighbors, relatives, and co-workers.
You clearly don’t understand the significance of simply awakening the populous to the current plight and helping to direct anger at those responsible.
The movement is about waking people up. Once we’re all awake, we go from there.
The control that the ‘power elite’, as you refer to them, have over our society necessitates that the majority of American take action against them on the level of boycotts, strikes, civil disobedience, and non-violent protest. You’re right, we need to do more. But we can’t until the majority of the country is behind us. Otherwise we will certainly fail.
2x
Let us imagine, arcadesproject, that the motto on our coinage has changed and now reads, “It Is Up To Us!”
All of “us” …
DW
Ratigan has an interesting interview going on now.
Anonymous: #OpCashBack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ8AI1_ChJI&feature=youtu.be
#nov5
Squee!
And if I don’t get a pony for Christmas…
Exactly. It’s the ultimate “wake up sheeples” movement. I see it as very successful in getting citizens to just talk about what’s happening.
Plus I am starting to see more letters to the editor of my local “nooz” paper stating flat-out that the bankers and Wall St ripped us all off, never paid back the money that we, the people, coughed up to bail out their sorry butts, and why do the CEOs keep getting ginormous salaries and bonuses??? Excellent that there’s commentary like this. ‘Bout time. Takes a critical mass… the 100th monkey theory come to life…
Bill Black doesn’t take any prisoners. Even called out Krugmann.
Boaz AL, pop. 7411 might just have one of the highest Occupy event participation ratios. An estimated 20 some odd folks, mostly high school students were out for an hour and a half Saturday until the cops cited them for demonstrating without a permit (an old civil rights era ordinance). That’s 1 demonstrator for every 370 folks in town. Well, maybe not. That’s the equivalent of 21,000 folks turning out in New York City.
Then there’s Valdosta GA, 130,000 metro area with 150 marchers by media estimate. That’s 1 demonstrator per 877 folks in the metro area. Well maybe not. That’s the equivalent of 9000 folks turning out in New York City.
Nonetheless.
I’m glad you agree
I really believe that waking the people up is what this is all about. For far too long we’ve let our representatives run wild and do what they will to the detriment of the country. There’s been no accountability. They no longer represent us, but their own interests, and this fact has manifested itself in our financial system, our environmental policies, our food safety, our healthcare system, etc. etc. etc.
If we don’t start taking ownership of this country and it’s future, things will continue as they have for the past 30+ years.
I just finished watching that Hedges interview. I can’t get the lump out of my throat. So moving.
Cool NY times interview with OccupyTogether and Adbusters people:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/from-canada-to-meetup-com-the-journey-of-a-protest-meme/
Also, Nathan, the memes are the weapons. The camp is just a tool. Defeat the false memes (coming from well funded thinktanks) and replace them with the truth and everything else will fall into place.
context?
I know most of the decisions have revolved around “where can we get free pizza”, but has any thought been given to how the wealth of the 1% will be re-distributed?
I mean, earlier I read that the wealthiest Fortune 400′s have $1.5T in assets, and the lower half of the country has $1.6T. So if we took everything from the richest people and gave it to the poorest, they’d only have twice as big a pot to piss in.
And that’s a one time deal, the top 400 would then have nothing. Do we go after the next 300,000 rich people and try to get another $1T? After that the top 1% is broke and are down at the bottom of the 99%. Change the name to 89% and start chopping at the top again? Giving money back to the new poor people who were originally at the top? How long does the wheel roll?
Solidarity from …
Power to the penguins.
Where?
Where have you seen the idea of massive wealth redistribution suggested? Where have you seen people advocating taking all of the assests from the Forune 400 list?
Do you have a link for that? One of my side careers is calling out Krugman, which so annoys some FDLers. Need support group and Angry White Guy on my side could be a decent choice.
I have a real problem with dylan’s get money out of politics and the fact he keeps trying to push OWS to get behind his campaign. Hers is my issue. In 2012 we will still have a congress and POTUS that is bought. just say we could get those wags to take up this issue………..how long would they take? How many things could come up in the meantime that the could use to direct attention away from this issue? Say we could keep it on track, how such would it be watered down? How many excuses would be made? Bottom line during all this the money is still in control and all other kinds of legislation that will hurt us and protect the few will be passed.
This push by Dylan is starting to make me question him. he knows the system is corrupt and yet he hold out this fig eaf of hope that we can work through it to get this change. I am not so sure. If OWS hitch its energy to this once the protestors have long gone we will find nothing has changed or it is at best cosmetic. Dylan has people like Ed Rendell on as support of his campaign. I mean Ed is one of the crooks. See the “art of the deal” to see how ED swindled 100 million in taxpayer money to help the Pell foundation steal the art from an independent museum. Can not remember the name. I like Dylan, but getting a bad feeling about him these days
Kevin’s series of articles is exceptionally good. Honestly, I feel honoured to be reading this.
a few months ago, an article appeared at this site, written by Gar Alperovitz. amongst other things he said:
They’re getting arrested for silly violations that have really nothing to do with offending or disrupting the power-elite. Functionally this is my biggest complaint. If you’re going to go through all the trouble of getting arrested, then at least get arrested for doing something legitimately disruptive.
If I get arrested for reckless driving in Pendelton, OR it doesn’t mean I’ve managed to disrupt the financial sector. The simple act of having been arrested isn’t logically congruent with having broken any rules that disrupt the elite.
Did you even bother to read the posts in this thread?
In the big time now.
LOL. I knew that’d be catnip.
Good idea.
Succeeded at what? That’s entirely my point. They’re currently not functionally disrupting anything. They’ve succeeded at getting together. So far that’s it. Full stop. No change of any kind has come to anything at all as a result of this. So shitting on liberal NGO’s (while there are thousands of reasons to shit on them) by claiming the apparent superiority of OWS is just you making a completely baseless assertion.
If Liberal NGO’s have completely failed to disrupt the power-elite, so has OWS. Neither one of them has a record to show for any serious disruption to the status quo.
Said K and other economists are afraid to call “fraud” on the banksters.
I don’t think it’s that easy to do economic justice. You have to ask questions about just where that $1.6T the Forbes 400 have is squirreled away. And then you understand why it has to be a global movement that includes Switzerland, Singapore, and the Cayman Islands, just to mention three key locations. And then a lot of that wealth is in securities in each other’s firms, which will take a bit of a beating if the proposal you make ever has legs.
Having a one-time jubilee on debts globally would reset the financial system. But that is not enough. There has to be investments in infrastructure that equalize the opportunities to build a life. Health care and education and income security being among that infrastructure.
And then there is the matter of corporations, which hold a lot of wealth in the corporate name. In fact, corporations shelter a lot of personal wealth from taxes. So, first there needs to be a rewriting of the tax codes to either prevent sheltering or eliminating the privileges of the corporate form altogether. Which raises a whole bunch of issues about the legal liabilities of cooperatives and collectives, which are just variations of the corporate legal form.
And then there are issues related to rents of resources – environmental resources, labor, attention, creativity, and so on. Consideration of how the economy treats these can dramatically influence income equality or inequality. And it has to be balanced with incentives to keep the economy operating instead of being in a perpetual or intermittent state of general strike.
It’s just a matter of how fundamental you want to go.
I get your point. But if the activists were getting arrested for seriously disrupting Wall Street, they would be “criminals” and jailed long-term. Now, maybe that would be helpful to progressive movement building, but I’m guessing not.
Apparently.
What exactly are they suggesting? It’s unclear from that tweet.
I don’t get his point. It seems sorely misguided. I mean, what exactly does Nathan want these people to do? I mean, first off, is he even participating in the occupations happening all over the country? Or is he just going to whine incessantly about all that is wrong?
Can you give me the cliffnotes version of what Krugman’s wrong about?
No he just said so in an interview.
If I am honest, I really don’t trust him either.
They are trying to setup occupations in cities. That is the core aspect of this movement – occupying.
Occupying can be disruptive if they are in parks with curfews.
I severely question your motives. Let’s suppose I agreed with your line of questioning — So what? What would you have these people do? Go back to their homes and watch television or play indoors with their gizmos and gadgets?
Probably marches. protests, actions, etc. Just a little more organization.
You are so bad.
Martinis for cocktails. May I slide one down the bar?
Probably “campaign for democrats.”
The system is not logically congruent. That’s part of the point. Thousands of hours of overtime are being spent for arrests for “disorderly conduct”, violating park hours, trespassing, …
Here’s a diary.
He’s basically an enabler of PTB who is sent out to define “TEH LEFT” as being so close to the right to enable the Ds to present their opinions as ‘centrist.’
It’s a little early out here on the west coast… but wait, I don’t have a job. Pour away!
I try to type once each OWS thread that committing peace is extremely threatening to PTB.
Alternatively I have a few home made choc mint shortbread cookies I made a couple of days ago, and I could offer a glass of milk to accompany.
OK, I can’t speak for Nathan, but…
There is a legitimate argument, IMO, that the activists have not forced immediate change in the day to day operation of Wall Street. There have been arrests, but not arrests for any *actual* disruption that substantively affects the 1%. That is factually accurate, no?
Whether directly disrupting the operation of Wall Street is immediate priority of #occupy is debatable. I would urge Nathan to expand his view of success to include movement building.
Well I don’t care. Just gonna pretend Bill Black is on my side. Can’t be any worse than what Rs do.
I’m not in favor of taking things away from anyone, but I am in favor of making it all a level playing field. You mentioned sheltered tax positions. The corps just now want to bring back cash tax free after they used some trick like transfer pricing to leave the profits out of the country.So they saved taxes on the move out of the country and now they want to save more on the way back. So now we have to cut SSMM to pay for their free ride.
I would have them actually disrupt the power-elite if that’s what people are claiming they’re doing. Specifically, that’s what you’re claiming they’re doing. That they’re some sort of force to be reckoned with.
If you want to say, “These people are getting together to occupy and be as minimally disruptive to the status quo as possible, save for a few fringe outliers who are getting arrested for things that have nothing to do with being actually disruptive in any meaningful sense.” Then go nuts. That’s a perfectly accurate statement.
However, that’s not the sort of high-flying movement rhetoric that you use here. I mean you claimed that they have succeeded where NGO’s failed. That’s not even a remotely supportable statement, because all they’ve succeeded in doing is getting people in a place. NGO’s have managed to do plenty of that. What NGO’s have failed to do is challenge the status quo. Which also happens to be what OWS has failed to do.
I just don’t get the point of dishonestly attributing powers, abilities, achievements, and successes to it where none have been recorded.
Thank you!
So, you probably are a fan of Dean Baker?
Rather be drunk than fat.
The real story is that the establishment pundits will bend over backwards to avoid acknowledging or accepting the protests. Their paycheck depends on them putting their fingers in their ears and going, la la la, I can’t hear you. Wearing blinders and saying, I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Their willful ignorance says more about them than it does about the protesters. At this point you have to be pretty thick or complicit to not see the problems with Wall St.
Keep it up. It needs to be said.
So movement building counts for nothing?
Not at all a Baker fan.
On one of his obsessions: devaluation of Chinese yuan. Profoundly stupid idea.
A lot of what else he writes makes sense.
Last night’s book salon emphasized repetition. So I guess I’ll commit it.
If you are truly being sincere here – and I will give you the benefit of the doubt – then I have to tell you that there is a dimension to this that you simply are not seeing. A kind of spectral blindness, if you will.
Will you go watch this six-minute interview with Chris Hedges?
Then come back and say you don’t understand again.
My step-dad back in the day used to assault me the the Archie Bunker epithet “Peace on you.”
Imbiber’s choice.
Alternatively the path to both could be enjoyable. Remember it’s not necessarily the destination that is important, but the road you take. *g*
Sliding martini down the bar to Petro. No sipping along the way plz. This is a ‘civilized’ site.
Why is yuan devaluation a bad idea?
Also, what do you think of Michael Hudson?
Are you sure he didn’t spell it ‘peas’ on you? Or ‘pees’ on you?
Just askin’.
“Piss on you” was the riff.
Devaluation of yuan charges U.S. consumers higher prices immediately without creating any new jobz in U.S. for years, if ever.
Never heard of Michael Hudson.
See. I didn’t get it but my mind was working in the right direction.
The First Declaration of the Occupation of Memphis
This kicks butt.
Let’s drink to Citigroups record quarterly earnings.
Dude. That’s not what I’ve said. I’m sure there are things they accomplished. Some of them probably good things. What I’m taking issue with is the completely disengenous characterization that’s been put forward in several of Kevin’s posts on the subject about the supposed power and strength of these protests as a force for disruption and change. As it stands they’re not disrupting anything. The “power-elite” can go on doing what they’ve been doing for the next 100 years if these protests are content to be people camping in parks where they’ve been given permission by local law-enforcement to camp.
When I go to a campground and get a permit for a space for my car. I’m not being disruptive by parking it where it’s supposed to go and having the appropriate permit for it. In order to be disruptive I’d have to do something that actually upset the presiding authority. Like park my car on the boat launch, or use it to barricade the ranger in his station, or something.
As it stands they’re very, very, very, very, very polite protests and extremely deferential to authority by and large. They stay put where they’re supposed to and they maintain activities that don’t really upset any power structures. They’re there. Awesome. Let’s pat them on the back for being there. Let’s not however start ascribing features to them where the facts of such are not in evidence.
eCAHN, we have been guilty of “the incessant greeting each other for the first hour of each thread” that so disappoints one of TBogg’s minions.
Discipline, now.
That was a really great interview.
Trickle down, baby. Clink!
Occupy Memphis march to The Civil Rights Museum.
That’s what Michael Hudson says about the yuan, too.
I think you’ll really like Michael Hudson.
http://michael-hudson.com/
My people!
I wasn’t around yesterday because I was Occupying with them.
The Brooklyn Bridge was closed for four hours. Times Square was closed for three or more hours. Exactly what sort of disruption are you looking for?
New Taibbi article on OWS:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/why-occupy-wall-street-is-bigger-than-left-vs-right-20111017
Notice multiple people, you and me included, directly answered his questions of “what’s the point”. He’s not responding to those comments.
I see the problem. You haven’t actually been following this very closely.
Now that is how you occupy an idea.
I’m imagining during the great depression someone asking the marching unemployed workers why they haven’t created any jobs yet.
Good point.
This affected the “power-elite” how exactly?
I’m starting to become concerned about the non-messsage of the Occupy movement getting redefined by someone else. Namely, the main stream media. In case you haven’t noticed, some of the msm have painted the movement as something that it is not, and by whom it is not. The longer this movement goes without some sort of definition, the more misinformation will be labeled to it. Everyone here is saying this is to ‘wake up America”. I agree, but remember the majority of Americans get their information from main stream news bites, not threads like this one.
Precisely.
His analysis of Occupy Wall Street is spot on. Focus on the system.
Going through the consensus process on alla that with the libertarians was interesting. Something nobody’s reporting on, that probably deserves more attention, is how the general assemblies are making a real tangible movement out of the libertarian/progressive alliance.
Nobody is claiming that these occupations have effected the power elite in any way, beyond drawing attention where there has been none in the past. We, the 99%, are a threat. Our collective awareness will lead to change. This isn’t an abstract concept. I’m not sure why you’re struggling with it so much.
Quite the contrary. Kevin claims this regularly.
I’m not even arguing this point. Congratulations on the non-sequitur.
Awesome. Wake people up.
Can you provide links or quotes to support that? Direct words from Kevin claiming that #OWS or any other Occupation movement have effected the PTB in a direct way beyond scaring the shit out of them?
Additionally, “power elite” isn’t my term. It’s Kevin’s.
Then answer my question. What exactly would you have them do? What exactly do you think would disrupt the power elite?
It affected any of the power elite that were planning to have their limousines deliver them in the area of the Brooklyn Bridge. It affected those in the power elite who were going anywhere near Times Square. Fifty thousand people occupying a major choke point in a city the size of New York is not without its effects on the power elite.
They haven’t even scared the shit out of them. Why would they be scared? Exactly nothing about what they do is threatened by these protests, because none of the “power elite” are in the path or wake of these protests thus far.
I’m glad you find me humorous. I find you sad.
S’okay, Nathan. We’ll keep fighting for you. Even if you continue to question our purpose.
Patience ysd. Patience.
Is that why JP Morgan Chase threw 4.6 Million at the NYPD? Is that why BofA’s stock is down almost 3% again today? Because nobody’s scared?
How many people do you think that even was? How many of the 1% or the “power elite” do you think make a daily commute across the Brooklyn Bridge…. the BROOKLYN Bridge?
Christ, based on nothing but basic demographic data they’d be more disruptive choking off Long Island.
I think that this is the real thing. The beginning of what will probably be a long, hard climb back to be a country that inspires others by our imagination, passion and ingenuity. The system we have now is hopelessly broken and corrupt and needs to be radically shaken up so that the tiny elites don’t call the shots on everything. I saw a sign today ‘you can vote in America, you just can’t vote for the people who really run the country.’ We must get the corporate money out of politics so that one person, one vote actually means something. We need to break up the ‘Systemically Dangerous Institutions’ aka Too Big to Fail institutions so that they can’t bring down the world economy again and we need to get rid of ‘Socialism for bankers, wrenching capitalism for the working stiff.’ These are all courtesy of Barry Ritholtz on his blog the Big Picture. I think he makes great points. http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-must-occupy-congress-ag-offices/
A Clarification from Occupy Atlanta
Just read.
I don’t even find it humorous. I find it a little pathetic that people, in order to respond, have to read into what I’ve said things that aren’t even there in order to create a controversy that doesn’t exist.
At no point have I said that I don’t understand the point of the protests. At no point have I said that I think they’ve accomplished nothing at all.
What I’ve said is that there are features being ascribed to them that don’t appear to have facts in evidence. Making articles like this read like a propaganda or PR piece rather than journalism.
“First they Ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they attack you, then you win.” Gandhi. We are moving in the right direction it seems.
Alright. At this point I’ll challenge you to do better.
Or at least respond to Kevin above and tell us how you would do things differently.
I’ve been scanning the comments and I have to say that you do not seem to be paying much attention.
Did you know that the Banksters were so afraid of the protesters that they had the police cordone off all of WALL Street? The people down there in the Park can’t get near the banks or the Exchange. Oh and did you know that Jamie Dimon just sent NYPD a HUGE check to help them with some little protection issues?
Evidently, you are not keeping up with the news on a regular basis. If so, you would know that Wall Skreech is secretly twisting their 320.00 boxer shorts!
OK, you’re just a naysayer. I thought you were offering some better ideas. If you are, let’s hear them.
Who is TBogg?
The TradMed is similar to the rest of the PTB – they are scared and trying to force the #Occupy movement into their oh so convenient pigeon holes.
By defining a “clear message” or “list of demands” it then will allow TradMed to go back to ignoring everything
The longer the concentration is on the fact that there IS a divide and that things ARE done mainly to support the 1%, the better off we all are.
As it is, it has forced the discussion away from “deficit scary!” and become “why is there this inequality?”
Great article, Kevin. What a treasure you are.
Not only that. We have yet to check for skid marks on their undies, or whether they’re wearing adult diapers.
No, what he asked was:
We’ve heard your criticisms. Bridge was blocked, people were arrested… what exactly, really?
Tbogg
Home of Thursday Basset blogging and master of the snark
(Grins)
Oh, they got skid marks. That I am sure of. Traders on the floor have Skreeched so much the past three months that the voice isn’t working anymore. They just go ahead and soil themselves.
Waking people up is awesome. Even dumb parodies like Idiocracy get that. It’s a fundamental first step, otherwise you get flailing, blunderous violence that not only accomplishes nothing, but will make things worse. Like the “promise” of the Tea-Party “movement.”
You’re right. You said this @85
You’re questioning the methods of this protest and it’s successes and failures, but you’re measuring these successes and failures against your imagined metric. Not the metric that Kevin is measuring against, nor the measure that the Occupations are using.
Now who was this directed at again?
You’re framing your questions and your arguments on your perceived mark for victory or disruption.
In short, you’re making shit up.
This guy “Nathan” is dense. Truly dense. This *is* an Awakening, in true American fashion.
In regard to people saying we shouldn’t take money from the fat cats–well, why not? They are stealing our labor and our tax dollars that WE worked for and they stole, to accumulate vast amounts of money and in turn despoil the planet and make our lives and the earth a living hell.
We need to think out the box. OWS is creating a new way to organize the world, a new way of seeing. It is a radical vision, something totally out of the ordinary.
It’s completely irrelevant what I would do differently. I’ve walked down and hung around the Portland protest and talked to a few people, and considered briefly camping out for the experience and working from a battery pack, my laptop, and tethered internet for a few days.
That’s the full extent of what I’ve done. It’s basically nothing. However, if I sat out there for a thousand years the way things are going, my biggest achievement would be being the first person to live to be a thousand.
My complaint, as it were, is all the pandering and grandstanding about the purported power this group has or is exerting, and just how supposedly terrified and crazy it’s driving the “power-elite.” I mean I guess it makes people feel good to delude themselves into thinking that these “power-elite” are terrified, but in reality aren’t actually even giving the protesters a second thought while they net another cool Million on the fire-hose of government largesse they traded with today.
So this is about Kevin being too enthusiastic for your taste?
Right. There is a shifting such that there is actually becoming a National Dialog, in the sense that its finally becoming 2-way, not just one way.
And that very shift is remarkable; has to be something like the first bits of the Rivers that Hercules shifted to clean out the Augean Stables.
And it’s been done all on citizen power.
Not quite. I’m measuring the success of them against Kevin’s rhetoric about them. It’s not about the yardstick in my head. It’s about the yardstick in the writing.
For instance the “Succeeded” line was a direct term taken from Kevin’s claim that they’ve “succeeded” where liberal NGO’s have failed. There are exactly no points of evidence to cover this assertion, but there it is. It was even used a second time as a fact-free rebuttal to my line of questioning.
This place is where they order their fancy smancy high dollar under wear and get their Christmas lists going.
http://www.trendhunter.com/slideshow/luxury-christmas-gifts
It’s about Kevin being just too making-shit-up for my taste. I don’t understand the need to propagandize the already converted.
The NYPD had fortified the financial district with structures transforming the area into a kind of Green-Back Zone….
Btw., do not forget Occupy the Wisconsin State capitol.
And on a related note, Mr. “Oh! Wall Street!” still hasn’t found his comfy shoes to go stand with those that had their right to collective bargaining taken away. Fits.
Nathan clearly doesn’t do “Awakening.”
You have been given the facts. You refuse to read them.
Okay. You just went beyond the starboard side with that comment. There is no gangplank.
Have you seen the pictures or video of the police blocking off Wall Street and setting up checkpoints? People aren’t allowed on the street for fear of these protestors.
Oh, I know who he is. I just don’t care.
Good God, man – already converted?
Your sarcasm at @155:
Do you even know what the word “Awakening” means?
I can’t remember if I posted this here or not, but the new taibbi article is really good.
Some fake-libertarian oligarch bootlickers hacked into Taibbi and Greenwald’s email list.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/why-occupy-wall-street-is-bigger-than-left-vs-right-20111017
LOL!
While Kevin backs up his assertions with documented journalism over the last 30 days, videos, pictures, links, quotes, and actual facts, you’re just disagreeing with him based on your opinion.
We’re now in the area of attempting to disprove a negative. We can’t do that. So I’m going to move on. I hope the 1% comfort you in your time of need.
http://twitpic.com/71wbk1
Oh, you were snarking. TBogg’s got his niche, but he seriously lost me the third or fourth time he resurrected his odious “Mumia T-shirt” post to lecture liberals as being too idealistic.
I have seen the pictures and video. And what I’m asking you is… how does any of that modify the behavior, activities, or outcomes of the ‘power-elite?’ Why not significantly violate this little safety corridor? As it stands they’re still completely safe and have nothing to fear.
He has an ego problem because Kevin has been reporting with links and traveling to do the job like a REAL journalist would do. That’s okay. His cruise will soon come to shore.
The FDL readership is the already converted.
OMG – that would cause a mass slaughter on this side of the border! I shudder to even think…
I’m thinking that OWS is aimed at a broader base than the FDL readership.
What the fuck?
It’s not that hard. What has OWS managed to do that liberal NGO’s abjectly failed to do? That’s Kevin’s claim. Not disproving a negative. It’s asserting a positive, which ought to have a record of marks to check against.
What are those things?
Do you even know what “disproving a negative” means?
That is NOT what you said above. You offended Kevin, myself, and all the others that have spent hours on here documenting.
You cannot offend the writer publicly on his own blog for being a factual whimp and not expect to have someone request you respond with some sort of dignity.
I’m sure that it is. However, Kevin’s article is not.
You gotta remember that I’m a VSP (very serious person) and a cultural moran to boot. Tbogg-type sites don’t do a thing for me.
I don’t see made up stuff so much. I do see some enthusiasm as you would expect when a movement gets started. I think there is a lot of truth in his satement above:
The Occupy movement is now discussed all over most TV stations. For awhile you would not know it existed. Now even my neighbor knows about it, doen’t like it, but knows aomething of it. She even asked me about it. Wonder of wonders, an awakening.
Liveblog’s up.
Really?
This is the very first thing I said in here today:
How is that substantially different than when I said this:
Occupy Iceland!
http://iceland-dori.blogspot.com/2011/10/october-15th-protest-in.html
Not sure why they need to occupy. They held a democratic vote on whether or not to bail their bankers out and 98% of them were like “Öh hell no!”
Guessing you’ve never been to a HS football game with cheerleaders.
Did that in my youth. Was, in fact the HS mascot (Bennett Tiger). Would never do it again. But worth remembering bc of the ginning up of spirit that moves human crowds.
Engineers, not so much.
To counter your argument I would have to disprove your negative assertion. It’s not really possible. Especially in a way that would satisfy you.
Your opinion is already formed. If the last 30 days of documentation don’t answer your questions for you, put your head back in the fucking sand. When the revolution starts, when the numbers are there and you feel secure enough to stand with us, you can pull back up. Hopefully we’ll have enough tangible results for you at that point. Otherwise, just stay the fuck out of the way.
I didn’t make a negative assertion. Try again.
Where has OWS succeeded where liberal NGO’s have failed?
It was claimed that OWS has done so. There must be some basis for that claim. What is it? What did it succeed in doing that liberal NGO’s failed to do?
I can definitely appreciate your honesty in terming it “ginning up.”
Well any poverty NGO, for example.
The center for Responsive Politics and the Economic Policy Institute while doing good work, and necessarily foundational, have never stimulated the national discourse like this movement is doing.
Thank you Kelly. That’s an excellent point. That’s something I can certainly appreciate. Shifting the frame of the aggregate narrative seems to be a necessary and useful tool to shifting the status quo.
I have had some lingering concern that not having a particular platform of sorts is going to create a vacuum in the narrative that the media will gladly fill with idiotic talking points and framing. I’ve seen it a few times already where the protests are narrowed to simple frames of taxing the rich, when it seems quite clear that’s not the case. In fact, if all we got out of this was a few % on the top end tax-rates it would be a serious shame. However, despite the fact that the protests seem to be about a lot more than that, it didn’t stop the panel of people on this show from spending an hour talking about it as though that were the only grievance.
Note: KrisAinTX, you should nominate Kelly for sainthood, because he apparently just performed a miracle. He “disproved a negative.” :rollseyes:
I guess police and swat teams out on the streets in riot gear means anything to Nathan. The protesters haven’t accomplished anything relating to a message to Wall Street. They evidently spend millions in NY constantly for riot gear on the streets daily.
I tend towards Asperger’s myself (kidding), but I scan his posts precisely to help keep up my (politically) cultural chops. Not a big fan of snark in general, so I never lurk the threads (except the other day over the D-Day kerfluffle, out of morbid curiousity over how some of the serious folk from these threads did in mixing it up.)
Speaking of Asperger’s…
The bankers are scared. People have been closing their bank accounts and moving their money. The bankers have paid the NYPD for special protection. The bankers asked NYPD to block Wall Street from the protesters. The media has noticed and Occupy is now a GLOBAL event.
There are many more small things, but you just want to argue and dump on Kevin as a factless story writer.
Major sporting events often illicit similar police actions. As far as I know they didn’t have any functional impact on the activities or desired outcomes of the ‘power elite.’
Additionally, liberal NGO’s have managed to organize lots and lots of events that have resulted in riot police being deployed over the years. Getting a militarized police response to something isn’t a complicated, nor intrinsically astute, thing to do in a place that has a grossly militarized police force that looks for any reason to deploy at the drop of a hat.
Nathan, as you stated in comment 186 that Kevin’s writing is not your taste why spend your time here?
OK, before passing judgment participate in a general assembly. Get in the stack and have your chance at the soapbox.
If there was not someone feeling threatened, there would be a hell fewer policemen pulling overtime, there would be no eviction orders from mayors and governors, no destruction or confiscation of personal property and media equipment by the police, no interference in filming police actions.
The mayor of Portland seems to be OK with what’s happening in his city, but he is a big exception. Democratic mayors in San Francisco, Seattle, Denver, Raleigh, Durham, Atlanta and a Democratic governor of Colorado definitely don’t see these encampments as harmless–to be ignored. You expect it in Wisonsin, Arizona, Ohio, and Indiana, where there are Republican governors under great public pressure. Who are threatened by popular revolts against their own policies. But someone is putting pressure on these Democratic officials. If not the powers-that-be, who?
I assume for the same reason you do. News.
What I got instead was a rally speech.
Occupy El Paso
Occupy Raleigh – general assembly
Authorities have confined them to the sidewalk.
North Georgia Labor Council members at Occupy Atlanta
I don’t know? Maybe citizens who are also part of the “99%” who either disagree with OWS or find it otherwise annoying on grounds that it impedes their daily lives while doing very little to impede the lives of the group they’re supposedly actually trying to protest against?
I live on a park in downtown Portland. It’s about 4 blocks from the OWS encampment. Despite the fact that I ultimately agree with the sentiment of OWS, if they were 4 blocks further to the west in front of my building I’d be hounding the city to make them move, because none of the 1% are anywhere near this park, and so the only people they’d be inconveniencing or disrupting would be people like them who would otherwise want to join their cause, but who are instead fighting against them because of their misguided choice of locale.
In either case we’re both just brazenly speculating. The difference is that I’m admitting to the fact that it’s nothing but speculation.
When Gandhi marched to the sea I don’t think it inconvenienced anyone’s tea time at the palace. This movement is a success and Kevin’s take on it is an accurate characterization.
This is not speculation: There are city authorities using every excuse they can think of to deny people the right to gather at a public place and petition for redress of grievances for as long as it takes. The park at Wall Street is symbolic public place because the public street in front of the New York Stock Exchange has be cordoned off. State capitols are legitimate public places for protest. City halls are legitimate public places for protest. And public parks are legitimate places for encampments.
A whole lot of the folks who are protesting have had their lives disrupted more than having an encampment across the street. Some of the folks who are participating in the general assemblies in Atlanta, for example, are homeless, some are unemployed, some are students with massive student debt and no prospect of a job even in fields that are considered good for employment (like MBA and law degrees).
In fact, you are right that while the power of the movement has provoked authorities, it really hasn’t significantly impacted the 1% — yet. But the media blackouts in certain areas and the harassment and police presence are indicative of someone somewhere other than “just the neighbors” having an issue with their continued presence.
If you have funds in one of the bailed out banks, have you moved them to a community bank or credit union. Enough folks doing that by November 5 will begin to have an effect.
And interesting observation.
Gandhi’s march to the sea was wholly enabled by a complicit and relatively benevolent power and authority structure. If Gandhi had been in Stalin’s USSR, you’d never have even known his name. Given our current record on civil liberties I expect the U.S. to be a lot more like Stalin’s USSR than Gandhi’s post-British-colonial India when the established order of powers is actually threatened.
YMMV.
It would be helpful if you could provide links and/or analysis to your assertions.
It’s speculation that it’s the 1%’ers putting this pressure on the authorities to do these things.
I’m not sure how this is relevant to the statement that I made. Literally every single one of the folks protesting have had their lives disrupted more than literally every single one of the 1% have by these protests. At the moment it’s like holding a hunger strike against people who don’t care if you starve to death.
The police generally don’t like modification to order at all. Police presence isn’t evidence of 1% terror. Otherwise Portland Timbers and Portland Trailblazers fans should be seriously patting themselves on the backs for being the most terrifying force ever unleashed on the 1% in Portland.
I’m not even going to sugarcoat this. This whole move your money thing is supremely ridiculous as some kind of punishment for the banks. I get it if you want to move your funds to an organization more apt to lookout for the quality and longevity of the deposits you place there. I get it if you want to move your funds to an organization more apt to engage you in legitimate due diligence in extending you credit for a home, car, business, etc.
However, the idea that this is some kind of punishment to the banks is just completely nuts. We already know what will happen if there’s a bank run on any of these banks. The government will bail them out. The money spent will be claimed as a shortage to pay on necessary public services. We already had a successful banking crisis in 2008 that we haven’t done anything to fix. I don’t see why creating another one would have a different outcome.
Sonora, CA population 5000
Demonstrators about 50!
I suppose. I, probably wrongly, expect people who first offer historical figures as talking-points to already have knowledge of the historical figure and the historical context relevant to the point being made.
There is no place on earth more Republican and pro Cheney than Wyoming. This says a lot about what Occupy Wall Street has been accomplish in the last 30 day.
http://kowb1290.com/occupy-wall-street-reaches-into-wyoming/
huh?
“In response to Nathan Aschbacher @ 36 (show text)
To enlarge on my earlier response – one of the significant ways that the American public in general holds some responsibility in the current sad state of affairs has been their willingness to “look up” to these people as successes, rather than the exploitative greedheads that they are. On top of that, everyone believed they could Horatio Alger their way into their company.
Once that myth is shattered, it alters their relationship with the public in fundamental ways. In ways that they really would like to avoid.”
This! OWS is doing some good old-fashioned consciousness raising.
Better late than never.
Nathan, I agree with all of your comments/analyses. You are continually right on target. Bravo for penetrating analyses! Keep on knocking them out of the park!
You’re absolutely right. The declaration of principles by Occupy Memphis is the real thing.
I have a lot of respect for your rights to disagree with what most of us in here think, and to make your case strongly, but your remarks here come uncomfortably close to being those of a provocateur.
I would like to apologize for any hardship caused. Is there an account which I can make donations to pay reparations?
There’s a difference between direct action and provocateur. You’re definitely right in one sense. I’m more in line with the Sea Shepherd way of thinking than the Greenpeace way. But that relates somewhat to my earlier comments regarding Gandhi.
I don’t think we’re in the kind of battle that can be won inside the confines of the current structures of power, because almost none of them should be legitimately recognized by the people… primarily because the people aren’t recognized by those powers.
Winter is a comin’ in. How about an electoral straddle strategy, not unlike the “few demands, big turnout,” partly whimsical, partly real attempt to introduce even more uncertainty, hurt the “major” fake parties voting pull?
Name: Third Party. What: Temporary national coalition to elect new Congress people who will do 2 things. Goals: 1) Cut off all US funding for US military and contractors in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen and near offshore. Estimated net savings will be used to reemploy Americans who have lost jobs. 2) Pass law to place Federal Reserve allocation of credit under majority control of elected public interest directors. Never again bailouts, nor $16 trillion credit money loaned to banks while real citizens suffer.
Qualifications for office: Only highly identified “extremist” candidates (e.g., Ron Paul, Denis Kucinich) and unknown independents need apply. No nominee of a major party (other than such “extremists) is acceptable. It will be extremely difficult to get elected and accomplish even these two goals. Candidates must keep their mouths shut about any other issues! Media will try to get further views, which would divide us. We’ll deal with other issues after election.
Being mainly unemployed, what else ya got to do??
Thanks, better than the response from 76 and 81.
I know nothings finished, but is there an end game, or is this just for fun?
By definition, I’m one of the 99%. I thought it would be ok to ask a question.
The British Empire was benevolent? On what planet? And what exactly does post-British-colonial mean? Are you trying to say India was not controlled by the British when the Salt March took place, or that there was another colonial power other than the Brits there? The whole statement you make is nonsensical.
Just for all the folks questioning the effectiveness of this movement, was Rome built in a day? I mean, given the fact that both political parties are owned by Wall Street and other 1%ers, and “journalism” amounts to cheerleading their policies for their own personal profit, it is a HUGE achievement to register a blip on the political richter scale. HUGE.
It has started the conversations. It is shining a light on corruption.
That’s a start. So mark your calendars of what is happening this fall. You’ll be giving oral history about it later.
Thanks for for your thoughts. But I disagree with you that the Sea Shephard approach would help this movement. The powers that be would love to have an excuse to shut the movement down and that would provide it.
I’m a great believer in Gene Sharp, whose work, I have to admit, I haven’t read extensively. But he’s absolutely against violence. Look at the major rally in Rome Saturday. There were 200,000 people — the largest on the planet. But what was the headline? That some splinter faction of hot-headed turds rioted. I’m willing to accept that you wish the movement well, but I don’t think your approach is the right one.
Benevolent in that they didn’t do to Gandhi what they did to Bhagat Singh. Like I said before. If Gandhi had been in Stalin’s USSR, you’d never have known he existed.
The fact that he wasn’t summarily executed at the first sign of real trouble is evidence of benevolence. I don’t expect our government will show the same deference to our own people. They’ll just get labelled as terrorists and managed as we’ve opted to manage people with that mark on them.
You’re quite right that India didn’t have independence yet by 1930, but Britain was already losing its grip by the early 20′s, and the work wasn’t all Gandhi’s. There were many, many violent revolutionaries that paved the way as well.
There’s no reason for power to change unless forced to. Otherwise they will just ignore you at best and mock you at worst.
I’m a big believer in non-violence too, it’s a great way to avoid getting yourself killed. I just don’t happen to think its track-record for change in the face of a completely apathetic or hostile authority is all that solid.