Military service not withstanding, I still daily try to figure out why I should be responsible for other people’s freely-accepted debt, including the debt of this man.

Bank bailouts = bad. Yes, I’m in total agreement.

Me paying off your bills because you made poor fiscal decisions = No thanks.

No one asked you to pay off this man’s debt. The debt is “owed” to those who structured the system to create a permanent debtor class.

I have been in the occupy St. Louis movement and after seeing the despair in the eyes of homeless and jobless people there I can empathize with them. If anyone has a chance to talk to occupy people I would recommend it. It might open the eyes of people on the sidelines. The game is rigged and they know it. Get involved with your local occupy movement in anyway you can. This is our time and the only way change can come. My 2 cents.

So your neo-conservative ass is all about supporting the troops until you’re confronted by the story of an actual trooper that goes against your deeply ingrained insensitivity?

Thank you for marking yourself as a flaming hypocrite and all-around asshole.

Ah, so this poor dude had a gun to his head which forced him to take on debt; this is indeed disturbing and should be investigated.

The soldier specifically says “I COULD DIE TRYING TO PAY BILLS!!!! WTF”

Which means what exactly?

Rafe, think this through more dude, why do you feel you are being asked to pay this man’s accrued debt, you are not……..the problem is the fixed system that created this man’s debt without any real benefit to him or way to pay it back. Why do you “feel” support for those banksters who sold him this bullshit……….think this thing through sir…..why are you even voicing support for the immoral way this man and others have been played to make them life long wage slaves with no real chance of escape…your thinking is difficult for me to understand Rafe……

It’s always a pleasure to hear the comments of a self-absorbed insensitive jerk.

Wow, you sure get a lot of mileage from a single post. Feel free to research what I think about the way Bradley Manning is being treated, hint: You won’t like what you find because it presumably would tie us together.

Not to make too much out of your hysterical post, but this soldier made his decisions freely, whether to drop out of college or join the Army.

One thing missing from all of these “I have loads and debt and can’t pay my bills!” are any specifics, any particulars of how the debt level was reached. Did the person have some emergency which put them into debt or did they stupidly spend money and use credit to purchase things they shouldn’t have. I have sympathy for someone who finds themselves in a tight squeeze because of an emergency or unforeseen disaster, none at all for someone who decides they need it all RIGHT NOW even though they can’t afford it.

Rafe. ps. yes he did have a gun to his head when he took on this debt. He is facec with todays dirth of real jobs, and was told that if he went to school, joined the military etc. he would be ok……that is not the case in america today sir…..poor bastards standing on the street waving advertising signs is not the kind of job one can repay debts, or support a family with sir……why do you support the thieves and liars who created this broken immoral way of bussiness……sir…..

The slogan “Support the troops” doesn’t really mean “Support the Troops.” It means “Support the executives of the war corporations pulling down $20 million a year who are using the troops as human shields.”

How is he supposed to get a job that allows him to make a living wage without taking on debt to pay for college?

You can draw a straight line between 20k debt and 2 years of college.

It’s pretty simple. 10k is the maximum allowable to borrow, per year, from FISA.

none at all for someone who decides they need it all RIGHT NOW even though they can’t afford it.

The real America = “I need a higher education so I can find a job that will allow me to survive RIGHT NOW even though I can’t afford it.”

What you’re suggesting is people should just die or waste away at WalMart for their rest of their lives.

As for your views on Bradley Manning? I could give a fuck. You troll all these threads with Galtian bullshit about ‘making our own decisions’ and ‘paying for other peoples’ debts’ and ‘I shouldn’t have to be responsible for his mistakes’. You’re convinced that Americans have a fucking choice. Just because you did, somewhere along the line, doesn’t mean everyone else does. Thanks for supporting Bradley. Doesn’t make you any less of a troll.

At least this guy is getting paid. When I joined the army in 1965 I was paid less than $100 per month. That’s why we called it “being in the service”. I wish him well. Imperial troopers are definitely part of the 99. If he survives his hitch he can start over, much wiser than before.

Really, all that from a simple note this guy is holding up? You have no idea how he got himself in the situation, for all any of us know he spent his student loans on a booze habit, or a nice new car, or whatever. Or he spent his earnings on all of the above and used the student loans to pay his living expenses. Or he chose to go to college, didn’t keep up with his studies, and wasn’t progressing.

As I’ve said already, it’s impossible for me to believe that every story of “OMG I can’t my bills!” is because the poor schlub in question was crushed under the thumb of a laughing, evil banker. Sometimes people make stupid decisions, happens all the time, and it is THEIR fault.

I’m not rich, I’m supposedly part of the 99%, I’m a veteran, yet I have very little debt and act cautiously when I make life decisions.

for all any of us know he spent his student loans on a booze habit, or a nice new car, or whatever.

You are soooooo detached from reality. Go pop 4 Tylenol PM, take a nap, and leave us all alone for a few hours.

Perhaps you can point me to the part where he is asking ANYONE to pay his deb for him.

(Oh wait, he isn’t. D’oh)

His point is a valid one. He spent $20,000 and he still hadn’t finished school. Because he hadn’t finished school his options for trying to pay off his debt were basically to become a mercenary for the US(which is basically what he is saying when he tells you he went overseas for the MONEY.)

Anyone remember not long ago when the military was actually lowering standards because of difficulties making their recruitment numbers?

My o my how times have changed.

The cynic in me would say all the foot dragging in dealing with high unemployment and a military that can’t squeeze anyone else in are not unrelated.

See, this way you get the results of a draft without havin’ to upset the rich folk.

You got me going now Rafe, do you understand the way “student loans ” work Rafe, private banks lend money at high interest rates, and make a good profit, because the us citizens gurantee the loan, we used to loan money (we, citizens) directly, like you would with a family member, Rafe, this takes some thinking to understand that this is a symptom of a greedy, and unsustainable way of doing business…. when the us constitution was created the very first reason given in the preamble for the break from king george was the following: in order to form a more perfect union……..even ahead of the common defense……we have stood by while our “citizens union” has been turned over to greedy moneychangers….man, i could go on and on sir…….again i ask with kind sincerity, don’t just respond emotionally as they money masters want you to…..think it through Rafe, is what you see today “just” honest, moral etc…….speak against that if you see fit then…….

Wait…what? Go to college part time and work part time. Share an apartment with roommates or rent a room in someone’s house. Eat simply. Use public transportation. Forgo any purchase that isn’t necessary. Find a career that doesn’t demand a 4-year degree or higher. Do what my father did back in the 1950′s: Go to school during the day and work at night. All this and more, whatever it takes to better yourself to whatever ends you choose.

Tough? Sure. Sacrificing a social life? Probably. Not having the latest and greatest. Yep.

You have no idea how he got himself in the situation, for all any of us know he spent his student loans on a booze habit, or a nice new car, or whatever.

We also don’t know if he’s a Martian, a Zoroastrian, or if he got into his financial dilemma by investing in a beefsteak mine. Absent those possibilities, we can believe that he’s telling a truth and that, like millions of Americans, he got into trouble because of the greed and rapacity of the powerful sociopaths on Wall Street.

He went to a STATE COLLEGE for 2 years. The cheapest state college in my neck of the woods is $10,000 a year. You might want to check your own STATE COLLEGE and see what it’s tuition rates are.

Oh and pot meet kettle. It’s a lot more far fetched that he spent the money on booze when college tuition at most state colleges run in the 10s of thousands.

Which was his stupid decision? The one about going to college so that he could have a good future or the one about joining the army so that he could pay his bills. It seems to me that he IS trying to pay his bills by getting shot at. Sounds pretty responsible to me – except he shouldn’t have to do that.

live free and enjoy social welfare ?

Anecdotal. I did that myself, used some of my GI Bill money to supplement my work income which allowed me to go out and carouse on the town. Stupid, maybe, but I didn’t complain if a bill had to go unpaid for an extra week because of my own actions; I chose how to act.

Don’t pretend it isn’t happening, not everyone can be a saint.

Doing two things at once often has disasterous results. At the very least, both things suffer for trying to do them both simultaneously.

Only a dolt would believe otherwise.

In case you weren’t aware the world has changed a bit since 1950.

He doesn’t want you to pay off his debt. He wants a fair deal, one that lets him gain a marketable skill at a reasonable price and then a job to help pay it off. Our education system, government and economy are aligned against him and millions of more just like him. The cost is simply too high and loaded with risk. Of course, he took the chance, there was no other choice. That is what OWS is about. How do we make society work for these people. They are our countrymen you know and we need to fix it. And no it is not all bankers but it is the 1% since they plug up everything and prevent us from addressing our problems, like, you know, unemployment, education, SSMM, etc. Cant even get a shit ass modest jobs bill passed congress these days. How you gonna fix education, etc. ?

Neither in his case, I don’t have any other information to go on other than “I’m in debt.”

I don’t know what he did to get in debt, how he spent the money, how he lived, how he managed his money. All I have to go on is “I’m in debt” and if I heard someone on the street complain about it, the first thing I would ask for is details.

You don’t need a college degree to become successful or even to survive with a decent standard of living, you certainly don’t need a bachelors or higher. Tell you what, attend a vocational school, get yourself a welder’s certificate (less than a year of training), move to my area and I will get you a job tomorrow for good money.

WTF means what the fuck, Rafe, which, oddly enough, is my reaction to your post above. How can you not understand the rigging of the system, so that you come out of college immediately indebted to the banks/government on your student loans which cannot be dispersed via bankruptcy, against which your social security can be garnished (which is actually probably against the social security law itself) unlike any other debts…

Really? No one can work and raise a family simultaneously? I’ll have to keep that in mind.

ah now we see rafe, self flaggelation…..really now dude, just because you blew the money we lent you for school on booze and chicks doesnt mean that is what happened to the rest of the world sir…….hmm now i understand your thinking better, thanks for the insight…..
ps. do you get paid a small amount by someone for your comments here and other public forums, or is this really the way you have come to think about things on your own?.

Which part of he joined the National Guard AFTER he went to college didn’t you get? Furthermore, the GI Bill isn’t available to part time contract folks like the guard(he tried for active duty they were full), you have to have a specific contract length to get the GI Bill.

Its swell that you have anecdotes that you were an idiot when you were young. It doesn’t mean he was though.

Ding!!!!

it’s impossible for me to believe that every story of “OMG I can’t my bills!” is because the poor schlub in question was crushed under the thumb of a laughing, evil banker. Sometimes people make stupid decisions, happens all the time, and it is THEIR fault.

Is it really easier for you to believe that 99% of this country is lazy and stupid vs. believing that 1% is greedy?

He TELLS you what he did to get into debt. He went to COLLEGE. He obtained the debt trying to survive while trying to obtain education.

In-state resident fees in Texas? $4,600 per semester for a full course load. Not including books, software, or any other related fees.

Well said! I watched a support-the-troops commercial last night, thinking the same thing. The fricking government doesn’t support the troops but certainly uses the public’s patriotism to promote the government’s wrongdoing in the illegal wars.

Don’t pretend it isn’t happening, not everyone can be a saint.

You’re right. Not everyone can be a saint. But you’re willing to write off everyone because some people may be irresponsible. How fucked up is that? It’s like saying “Everyone who doesn’t grow their own food should starve because some of those consumers overeat.”

You can. However, I can guarantee that neither your studies nor your family will have your FULL ATTENTION while doing both.

I raised a family while going to school, Guess what? My grades suffered for it and I was exhausted during the day because I’d have to be up all night typing papers(since that was the only time I could get things done without interruption.)

Rafe, both of my kids just graduated from a state college – I owe $100,000 for their degrees and each of them owes about $30,000. Does that help you understand the money spent on college? At least $1,000 a term on books, then there is rent and food and transportation…….

both of my kids just graduated from a state college – I owe $100,000 for their degrees and each of them owes about $30,000

From a STATE college? Holy shit! You could go to Harvard for that 40 years ago (not that I did or could).

Doesn’t tell you why or how the debt was gained, only that it exists.

Example: A person laments that they have a master’s degree and yet can’t a job. Sorrowful, lamentable, outside of any particulars maybe even heart-rending.

Then you find out their degree is in Ancient Assyrian Poetry, and goshdarnit they just can’t find someone who will pay them a nice salary which utilizes their knowledge of Ancient Assyrian Poetry.

Sorry but my sympathy fades away at that point. There is a reason that buggy-whip producers eventually had to lay off their employees.

But now, Harvard is $52,650 per semester.

My mistake. That’s per year, not semester. Undergraduate studies.

Are you purposely obtuse or are you being paid for these comments?

that is good to know rafe, however, i cannot take your thoughts seriously any more…….best wishes..ps. do you get paid to make comments here and on other public forums, and if so, who pays you rafe?

It’s a shame they pay so much to learn nothing. s/

not including room and board and transportation

Of course I understand, but you and they made the choice, presumably with full understanding of what the costs were.

My brother drives a big rig for a living. The formal education of how to drive and operate a large truck cost him a 1 month stint at a tech college and $1,200 worth of “tuition”. So he drives a rig and makes decent money, and on the side is pursuing a business degree so he can eventually takeover and run my old man’s company. Choices.

Or books, or computers, or any of the other costs associated with getting an education at an Ivy League school. That’s JUST tuition.

Yes, because I don’t happen to agree with you means I’m not only obtuse but also getting paid by….ssshhhhhhh…the Koch Brothers.

Jeebus, really?

Sounds like one guy believes that:

“We have lost our ambition, our imagination, and our willingness to do the things that built the Golden Gate Bridge…”

“I mean, there are a lot of things we can do, The way I think about it is, you know, this is a great, great country that had gotten a little soft and, you know, we didn’t have that same competitive edge that we needed over the last couple of decades. We need to get back on track.”

I’m going to go back to just loving you unconditionally

Have a great day, Rafe.

Fine with me, nothing personal here from my end. Enjoy your day.

From that quote you extrapolate that 99% of the country is lazy or stupid? I don’t see how you could draw that line unless 99% of the country built the Golden Gate Bridge…

The key here is HE was irresponsible so therefore everyone else must engage in the same behavior.

I’ve got news for him. Figure in 9 hours worth of sleep your left with 15 hours to work and study. Get a job working 8 hours a day 5 days a week( $15,000 a year. One year tuition plus a small living stipend of $5000)and your left with 7 hours to study. You either don’t take a full course load making getting your education a much longer process or you have to cut back your hours and have less to live on(even where I live you’d need a minumum of $4000 if you SPLIT costs for shelter, food, utilities).

In the 1950s what Rafe talks about might have been possible. He ought to run the numbers TODAY though. I’ve got an 18 year old. We ran the numbers($30,000 for a 4 year degree. 2 at community college and 2 at a state college. Another $32,000 for living expenses if he has to live outside the home. So he’ll need around $60,000 for schooling if he wants to teach.) He’s forgoing college right now while he builds up his bank account. He’s fortunate though. Not every parent can afford to support their kid ad infinitum.

I joined the Marines in 1969 and got about $125 a month. Luckily I was promoted very quickly so after a year I was an E4, then Vietnam and combat and flight pay and a final promotion to E5. I think I was making around $700 a month when I got out.
The big difference between then and now is that the GI Bill was freely available, and the difference between my GI Bill and that of the WWII and Korean War generation was that the previous bill paid for college or graduate/professional school. A lot of the self-righteous lawyers in congress back in the 60s and 70s were veterans who got their degrees from the GI Bill.
Now kids who can’t find jobs join the service in order to just live, shades of Napoleon’s Grand Army. The disgrace in this country is that education, even a bad one, is being priced out of the reach of most people.
Why is everyone spending so much time feeding this selfish a-hole?

“nothing personal” ok……….may i say ……what i have read of your words today, stands in direct opposition to that statement……it is all personal with you, from your admission of stealing loan money for school and spending it on booze and chicks to clearly emotional responses to complicated matters, but, as i said best wishes……..oh…….nothing personal here either……..rafe……ps. do you get paid or not……

You do fail to understand.

You don’t seem to be trying very hard. Why should I help you out? Continue to fail!

Uhhh…no. The key is that minus some context I’m not going to automatically shed tears of sorrow for every story that appears on “We are the 99%”.

The OWS is finding that out the hard way as it discovers the criminals, freeloaders, and derelicts in their midst who are taking advantage of them. Or would you believe the guy who is stealing laptops from OWS tents if he says he is only doing so to provide computers for kids in African orphanges?

Another “Rafe” thread. Keep up the good work Rafe. You generate a lot of discussion.

Goodness, all I did was scroll. Why feed? WOT.

Rafe,

You aren’t paying this man’s debt. You are paying him to kill people in the Middle East. He is using his salary to pay his debt.

I don’t extrapolate anything.

That quote was from One Guy who was refering to Americans in general. Which is what the 99% is.

And he said Americans (the 99%) lost our ambition, our imagination, and our willingness – that sounds about the same as lazy and stupid.

How or Why? Dude he was in school. State schools cost tens of thousands to attend per year. Living expenses also usually run in the thousands.

Frankly, if he only racked up $20,000 after 2 years then I’d posit that he was probably living frugally. He might have even *gasp* had a part time job.

I have to ask. Do you have any young people who have attended college recently that you know? Since I have teens I know alot of them. Most are perfectly nice and above average in the responsibility department and they still manage to acquire debt while in school. My son works at an afterschool program. He works with a graduate student who works part time at 2 jobs and she STILL had to take out student loans. Why? You won’t be able to put in an 8 hour day and attend school. As I pointed out above, minimum wage FULL TIME only yields you $15,000 a year. If schooling is $10,000 and you aren’t working FULL TIME you’ll find it practically impossible to pay for your basics and school without some debt.

Eh, I’m not failing. I have a good life, a good job, good friends, and the satisfaction of having learned from my mistakes to make it all positive.

And Worcester Polytech in Mass is $50,000 a year, Drexel is $53,000, and Renssalear is $55,000 just for tuition. Food, room, and books adds another 13,000-17,000 a year.
The middle class isn’t meant to survive anymore. We served our purpose by buying the cars and houses and other junk corporate America produced so it could stash all the profits while paying workers the bare minimum (and even union wages back in the 70s was the bare minimum compared to corporate profits). Now that there’s no more room in the den for another 52″ TV or room in the driveway for another Escalade there’s a lack of demand and those quarterly profits aren’t as easy to come by. It’s time to allow big business and its shills to raid the retirement funds guaranteed under Social Security using an apples and oranges argument to fool people about an emergency that doesn’t exist.
You wanna save some money in the budget? Make congress members pay for their own travel and stop paying them every time they go back to their districts. Make them pay for their own health care like the rest of us and stop giving them outrageous free time schedules. People complain because they think teachers get too much time off. Has anyone really looked at how little time a member of congress spends “representing” the people?

We have our saint of the day. BTW, Rafe, you forgot to mention LUCK!

Oooohhhhh….and here I thought soldiers were being embraced by the OWS, you know, all that “The Marines are coming to protect us!” stuff I heard here a few weeks back.

Now they’re just paid killers? It seems you’ve created a conundrum here, this soldier who is having trouble paying his debts and is now murdering people for the State in order to get money to pay his debts. Sympathy or no sympathy, help me out here.

interesting comment rafe….do you get paid for these comments or not?

no mas, rage….oops i mean rafe…..thanks for the chuckle dude…oh…nothing personal here………

I would like to point out to the sole detractor on this thread that his observations are not in any way founded on the facts in evidence.

The major one for me is the young man’s commitment to his parents. Even though he is presently overseas, he continues to pay rent of $600 to them. That’s a dedication which belies any of the crummy aspersions lobbed by anyone that the young man is deficient in moral integrity. His parents, who at 60 have had to come out of retirement to work, probably would be homeless or destitute without that $600 a month, and while the young man is sacrificing on behalf of his early attempts to educate himself in order to qualify for one of those outsourced jobs, he at least has the right idea about where a large portion of his earnings should go. And that might save him from the despair that afflicts so many in his situation.

Bravo to him; his parents and we ought to be very proud. He has done the best he could possibly do with the circumstances of his life. And if you, Rafe, have done as well, I am sure your parents are proud of you also.

I see no contradiction. Young people are forced into the military to earn a living. When a soldier is on combat duty he/she may be forced to kill another human being. I support the common soldier. I do not support the imperial, war mongering nature of the psychopaths that run this country. War for profit is immoral.

It doesn’t appear that you’ve shed ANY tears for the 99%. I visit these threads daily and I’ve yet to see you say “Wow! That is screwed up. We ought to fix that.”

I’d never ask anyone to apologize for their feelings. So you won’t see that. However, I do struggle to understand how someone can see need and pain and not be moved by it. I can’t understand how anyone could be so cynical that they’d figure a debt of $20,000 for 2 years of schooling must be from profligerate spending. Perhaps you’ve had a hard life and it makes you feel better to see others struggle. Perhaps you just lack empathy. I don’t know. However, I do feel sorry for you. Compassion for your fellow human beings is a gift. It isn’t the curse you make it to be.

These people are going to have different life stories than you. It doesn’t make them better. Or worse. It just makes them different. These stories make me grateful for what I have had and make me want for these people to have just a bit of the happiness and success my family is lucky enough to experience.

Myself, I’m not that far removed from the college days.

I’m not arguing the specifics of college costs or food or clothing or whatever, only the specifics of how that debt was created. A college education isn’t a guarantee of anything, and presumably anyone intelligent enough to attend college can parse the numbers and understand the associated costs.

Did you ever suppose that perhaps some people just aren’t college material, that they are better suited for something else, and that unfortunately discovering it means taking some hard life lessons?

Yes, I get paid. $24.64 per 50 comments (pretax) by Rush Limbaugh and the Koch Brothers.

Happy now? o_O

When my son was in college his grades started falling (spending too much time with slackers instead of studying). I told him I’d pay for school and provide him a place to live, but if his grades didn’t improve his next bed was going to be a cot – army, prison or homeless shelter. Didn’t matter to me.

The tendency of “conservatives” to block distracting information and remained fixed in their ideas is well understood. So is their lack of empathy.

interesting…….coming from a a guy who steals loan money and thinks that others then must be doing the same……thanks for the response……rafe…….out.

Maybe because I don’t comment on every thread or post as often as I have here; I’ve got the day off and found myself here so why not.

You should look back at the Manning threads, or peruse some of the marijuana topics, or maybe research any of the Iraqi/Afghan war articles. If you did you would find yourself, I would presume, on the same side as I stand with regard to those topics.

So does that me make me similar to you, or you similar to me?

So the world is supposed to all drive big rigs? You do realize that many careers need a secondary education and that the world would be a poorer place without those careers.

I don’t want a doctor that went to a technical college. Nor primary school teachers, nor research chemists…….

Is it fair to ask people to put themselves tens of thousands of dollars into debt to obtain schooling for a job that benefits everyone?

The guy does not tell us what he was attending schooling for. I’ll grant that. However, it’s a pretty sorry state of affairs that we’d go in the other direction(since for years blue collar jobs were mocked as unskilled labor) and tell everyone that they should avoid college to avoid debt. Yet, that indeed appears to be the direction we are going. It certainly isn’t going to help us in a global marketplace.

Do what my father did back in the 1950′s: Go to school during the day and work at night.

Perhaps you could do that in the 50s – 70s, but not today, with even state university tuition way up, and wages stagnant.

I remember one of the early OWS (unofficial) demands was free college education for everyone. Talk about unseriousness.

College for everyone = college for no one.

If everyone has a degree, then there’s no reason to pick one over the other.

I take it you consider yourself liberal.

I’ll try to keep that liberal empathy in mind as I read about hungry, homeless people being denied the free and donated food at OWS.

Funny thing about zealots, they seem to avoid mirrors.

How are you arguing the specifics of how the debt was created?

Actually you appear to be throwing out random accusations of his irresponsibility even though from a factual standpoint $20,000 for 2 years of schooling is a fairly low sum of debt. He spent $10,000 per year for schooling, books and basics(including food and shelter). Living expenses for even a cheap place would likely run a couple thousand and it sounds like he is/was living with his parents who rely on his rental income.

I just don’t get how you can turn this guy into someone guilty of irresponsible decisions without a very active and cynical imagination.

Then there is the 600% rise in the cost of education since the 70′s. This is much higher than the housing bubble. Bush gave the student loans to the banks and they ran with it. Colleges and universities pay their presidents vast sums of money with the justification that those salaries must compete with corp CEO’s.

Remember when an education was to both create a skill and to open a mind? Remember when being a human being was a thing of beauty and not something to be sucked dry?

Funny how 300 homeless people are being feed at Occupy Sacramento every day.

personal now rafe…..i find you to be a very disturbing fellow, i wish you had spent that money on more education instead of chicks and booze….i have to get off of this now, or i may simply tell you to fuck yourself and the horse you rode to this fair…….the point of education is not just to become a wage slave for life …..rafe…..damn this is dissapointing to know that you really think this way……

Do you plan on end result-testing college education money? Not everyone who gets a college degree is going to be a research chemist, police officer, medical doctor or school teacher. Some are going to end up as bank executives, oil company magnates, and hedge fund managers.

Some of those police officers will end up being “White Shirts” who spray mace into the faces of OWS protesters. Some of those school teachers will decide to seduce their underage students. Some of those medical doctors will create lucrative private practices liposuctioning cellulite from the butts of rich people.

That’s my point. I thought Rafe was probably older when he made that statement. However, he says he isn’t that far removed from his college days.

Actually I’m simply adding this guy to the long list of sob stories that I see here and at other places; sad faces accompanied by sad stories which are mostly, not all but mostly lamenting debt with nothing more than “I own money and can’t pay it back.”

I wouldn’t accept my child coming to see me with a fat lip and a story about being attacked on the bus without knowing the full story.

Like I mentioned earlier, perhaps this dude found out the hard way that he wasn’t college material. Maybe he slogged along hoping it would get better and easier and finally threw in the towel. Tough for him, sure, but life and American citizenship doesn’t guarantee success on every front.

You can do that today, I did so from time to time but reversed: school during the day and work at night.

About the OWS myth…

Why would you be disappointed, I’m just an anonymous voice on the internet, besides you apparently think I’m simply a paid hack that you are barely restrained from telling to go eff himself.

You want to get personal, go ahead, I don’t know you either and if it makes you feel superior then by all means jump on in.

Funny how they were driven off at OWS. Maybe the Sac protesters could mail some of their empathy to NYC.

The police department has their own schooling. You don’t need college(and you don’t need to put yourself into tons of debt).

I have two brothers who chose this route(My family was/is poor so our options were extremely limited.) Although one of those 2 was one credit shy of an associates out of high school(back when they weren’t nickel and diming you in high school for AP courses.)

Apparently, the education was wasted on Banking execs. I don’t know how you get a degree in banking and still not get that perhaps it’s a poor idea to lend money without actually looking at documentation. Just goes to show you that college isn’t the be all or end all. It also goes to show you the system is broken when a CEO screws up and everyone else ends up paying for it and yet when someone like this attempts to do everything right by getting an education to get a decent job and do it without breaking the bank and HE is told pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

I’d like to see a fairer system where we forgive debt after a certain period of time if you don’t make a specific amount of money or if you are willing to volunteer for public service. I don’t think having thousands of dollars hanging over your head for years is a very productive way of encouraging people to learn.

Uh…nope…depends on the state.

In my state of Minnesota, to be a police officer you need a minimum of a 2 year degree, a certificate from a 3 month state certified training program known as POST (police officer standard and training), and then pass a subsequent POST test. THEN you are eligible to begin applying for law enforcement jobs in the state.

Some departments such as Minneapolis or the State Patrol have academies, while smaller cities and most Sheriffs departments utilize OJT.

That is untrue, Rafe. See? You are obtuse – do a little research for heaven’s sake. And I know for a fact Occupy Detroit is feeding the homeless (check the Detroit Free Press site for yesterday’s article on Occupy Detroit) – Done feeding you, Rafe.

thanks dude, it did make me feel better………passsive aggressive much rafe?…….the dissapointment is at your lack of empathy or understanding of the term “a more perfect union”…….put simply, i am saddened by your way of thinking rafe…..just sad…..it seems destructive rather than supportive of your fellow “union” members..ie. citizens of the US…..

Which comes full circle that college may not be for everyone, especially if they can’t seem to properly utilize what they learn.

What would be fair about a debt program that wipes the slate clean if you don’t earn a certain amount of money? Why not just wait out the period and lose your debt, or what happens to those who have high-end degrees but a terrible work ethic?

So in effect you did insult me, at least you were able to admit it. See, even your sly attempt at pretending you weren’t really doing so still paid dividends. You can now retire from this thread knowing that you really put me in my place with your head held high as a master of the debate. Cheers.

There are no wins and losses here. Just conversation. And I have to say that I don’t understand your views at all. Since you are happy and comfortable why can’t you wish that for others?

sir, you put yourself “in my place”……and i find it sad…..cheers rafe……

Are you denying that the OWS cooks went on strike, refusing to prepare certain foods because they felt that homeless people were taking advantage of the free food? It happened, oh yes it did, and was apparently a failure of empathy for their plight.

Free food for me but not for thee. Hey, that has a nice ring to it.

Yeah because everyone can afford to just sit it out and wait so they don’t have to pay anything. Do you realize how silly you sound sometimes?

It’s like the fallacy that people are going to forgo a higher income simply so they can avoid paying taxes at a higher rate on the extra earned. It just isn’t a realistic assumption.

hmmmmm….that puts me to mind of your general position ” yes for me…..no for you”……you stated it well rafe

Apparently your definition of conversation and mine differ slightly, for reference please see: firedoglake, old dude, go eff yourself.

No sillier than forgiving college debt because someone didn’t earn a certain amount in a given time period. I would love to see the charts and equations for how that program would be administered, not to mention figuring out where the money would come from.

There are now a set core of people in this country with the libertarian mindset.
They will not change.
When the country does hit rock-bottom (no not yet, give it 5-10 years before enough are knocked out of their fantasy land), then I suggest we split the country.
Let them have their “capitalist” utopia. And we can have ours.

Capitalism is NOT the problem. We don’t even practice capitalism anymore. It’s all rampant fraud, bribery, and theft.
The most functional countries rely on a mix of real capitalism and socialism.
And that’s what we need.
1. No more bribery. Any public official caught taking bribes is charged with treason. Strip their assets.
2. Go back to Eisenhower tax rates.
3. All utilities become public. All resources become public. And all proceeds gained go to … surprise, the taxpayer, who paid for it.
4. No more wars. Bring ALL the troops home. And only defend.
5. Why are we in the middle east or why do we have US ambassadors shilling for corporations? No more! Switch to alternatives to take care of the oil issue. We have enough oil here for ourselves if we switch to alternatives. And the corporation thing also takes care of itself if we make it so all corporations are 75% public/25% private, and beholden first and foremost to the public and the US as a whole. Any CEO, executive, or pawn found guilty has their ALL their assets seized and appropriate jail time.

Just a few ideas for our half of the new country.

It would come from the same place that trillions of dollars for war come from.

Spending money to blow the world up 100 times over is a choice. I’d much rather we spent money on productive things like making sure kids get a decent education so they and our country have a future in a global marketplace and on meeting the basic needs of our citizens.

Then again, I don’t have large “investments” in defense contractors or in companies that wish to exploit the resources of other countries.

There definitely needs to be some new rules on accountability.

Something is wrong when you can tank a company and walk away with millions while the guy who works hard 40 hours a week for 17 years walks away with nothing but a pink slip.

Take it up with the investors then, they’re the ones keeping those companies alive.

Or better yet, since we’re talking about college here, take up the costs of higher education with the universities.

You know why Harvard charges a mint for tuition, because people like Elizabeth Warren are pulling down salaries of $350,000 and since money doesn’t grow on trees yet (though I’m working on that), the money needs to come from somewhere.

I should add that I agree with you about military spending, I don’t like the United States being viewed as the world’s policeman, nor do I enjoy the thought of sending troops into every godforsaken crudhole in the world for ill-considered reasons.

Oh no….does this mean that you and I are….*GASP*…agreeing? Oh dear.

Exactly.
Thus not capitalism.
Theft, fraud, corruption. YES.

Oh I am an ardent supporter of taxing capital gains at the same level as labor. The investment class shouldn’t be able to pay a smaller sum of money for their share of representation with the larger sum coming in “under the table” campaign contributions.

Believe it or not, I don’t hate business or the men who engage in it. I just want it to behave responsibly and I want the system to be fair. There shouldn’t be a pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality for individuals and regulation galore for personal decisions like procreation, marriage,etc,etc and absolutely no sum of money to small to turn over to corporate America in the form of mandating private health coverage, subsidies for oil companies, subsidies and immunity for telcomms, government contracts despite fraud convictions etc, etc and NO regulation because that “stifles their job creation abilities.”

The system needs to be set up more fairly.

When did you attend college?
What classes did you take?
What type of school did you attend?
How much was the tuition?
What type of work did you do while in school?
Did you need to work during summer break or did you go to school or just screw off?
Did you live at home while attending school?
Did your parents or anyone besides the Feds help pay for your college education?

Rafe, do you not think things might have been a bit tougher for you if education was 600% more expensive when you went to school?

Actually Occupy Sacramento does NOT feed 300 homeless people a day. I’ve been there for days on end (since the first day, the 6th) and have NOT seen 300 homeless people fed on any given day. In fact food tickets are given to occupiers so they can be served first and then and only then are the homeless allowed to get in line for food after the occupiers have been served. I have not ever even SEEN 300 homeless at Chavez Park on the many days/nights I’ve been there. Not sure where you are getting your info but it has no basis in the reality I’ve witnessed first hand. Maybe it’s a typo because typically there are around 30 homeless people that frequent the Park on any given day/night. What’s really funny is you making false statements about things you obviously have no clue about. I’m not defending Rafe other than the statement of his you responded to with a false statement. Carry on.

I’ve had the same thought. Libertarianism is a religion immune to reason.

Also, “we” should shamelessly idea-mooch off the Scandinavians when constructing our country and economy.

What? I’m not that far from my college days. I knew the costs going in and made my decisions appropriately.

Sorry…I was mixing up you and your dad, where you said:

Do what my father did back in the 1950′s: Go to school during the day and work at night.

Do you think it would have been different for your father if education was 600% more expensive then?

I daresay we’d agree on more than a thing or two. I live in a fairly conservative part of the country and I get along famously with most of my neighbors.

We own our modest home and one of our vehicles. We don’t own credit cards. My kids are well mannered and hard working(not just my opinion.)We both are veterans. We both have held jobs in middle class America. We agree with conservatives as to the government being broken(we just disagree on how to fix it in entirety.)We both believe in helping our neighbors(I get to do this more since I don’t work outside the home anymore.)

Most people don’t even view me as a raging liberal, they see me as fairly moderate even though I prefer to think of myself as liberal.

Rafe,
Please answer my questions at 116.
These are questions you have either asked about the Occupier of the Day or someone else on this post.
How about it?

My question is as a young person did you make any mistakes and was there anyone there to help you or did you have to fix it all yourself?

I’ll answer first if you like. I wouldn’t have even gotten into the military if it hadn’t of been for my stepfather. I quit school my senior year(I was working full time to help my family while taking college entry courses. I burnt myself out. Badly.) Since I was female I wasn’t allowed to join with a GED. My stepfather made a few calls and got me enrolled in an independant study summer school so I could get my diploma.

I’m smart, hard working and I still made a big enough mistake that it could have changed my life trajectory forever. I was still fortunate enough to have someone that had my back and felt I shouldn’t pay for my youthful mistake forever.

This is what this kind of debate is about for me. Is it a mistake to get yourself into tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt for a career you may or may not have? Sure. Is it a mistake you should have to pay for 10 years out while making median wage? That’s where we differ. If I were given the power, this guys national guard service would wipe his slate clean.

Maybe it was another organization then. I just remember seeing a huge line of people getting food in the park on Saturday right about the time the demonstration to the capital was returning.

There was praying going on so it was probably not Occupy Sacto.

OWS is not out there to feed the homeless. How can you confuse this? You really make no sense.

Probably, though I did the same thing myself not too long ago.

Still, that leads me toward college costs, not a breakdown of a societal system that should be erasing debt because success was not subsequently gained.

When the new liberal hero Elizabeth Warren got raised on her pedestal here recently, I noticed nary a comment which mentioned her very large salary.

Ms. Warren makes too much money.

Not confusing this, just trying to make sense of a comment that claimed conservatives were lacking in empathy while a movement that claims to represent 99% of Americans is busy turning the very antithesis of the rich 1% away from tables heaped with free, donated food.

Because that claim you keep making wasn’t true – the NYPost made it up. OWS’ers never turned anybody away.

[OWS Food Committee member Megan] Hayes said the kitchen is planning its stripped-back meals simply to give its committee members more time to strategize. “Because we hit the ground running, we became a full-on restaurant in the park in under a month without having a chance to have any organization, any clear guidelines for volunteers. We need a chance to catch our breath, to say alright, winter’s coming, we’re not going anywhere, how can we maximize our output and get as many people as possible fed.”

I suppose this is where our paths cross again as I would do similar were I in charge, actually I would do more, though I suppose as a vet from a large family of vets I might be accused of having a bias.

So what’s your story?

You’ve suggested that people should do what your father did, back when higher education was affordable, and /or do what your brother did, which is work towards an education so he can inherit the family business.

See how we might be catching a bit of a “let them eat cake” vibe off of these suggestions?

What’s her salary?

Median income in this country is deplorable when compared to the cost of living. It isn’t any wonder people are in debt if 50% make less than $27,000. It was that kind of data that made me encourage my son to look carefully before leaping into debt.

Made it up with direct quotes from named OWS staff?

You’ll notice the Atlantic article was a quick rebuttal to an embarrassing revelation, “of COURSE it was just a simple reconfiguring of the food system…what else could it be, so please move along.”

If a politician did this you be right to say coooooommmme oooooonnnnnn.

Yeah, I hate it when I’m caught advocating personal responsibility.

I suggested many options and obviously not the only ones that can be utilized to get through college if you aren’t rich. How is that a Marie Antoinette moment, because I refuse to accept a context-free tale of woe?

$347,000 per year.

Warren also earned $116,000 as a legal consultant, $25,000 as a nonprofit researcher, and $192,000 as chairman of the committee that oversaw the bank bailout TARP fund (ohhhh, that must be embarrassing for her).

Don’t worry though, Ms. Warren knows just how badly the little guy has it.

Being a veteran is one of the few avenues that help someone up the economic ladder(at least for now. Congress has intently been chipping away at benefits for soldiers and veterans.) It shouldn’t be a requirement though.

There are plenty of ways to contribute to the benefit of society that shouldn’t involve being shot at. If we are going to subsidize I’d rather we do it at an individual level then it go consistently to the top of the economic food chain (super megacorp)who then utilize it to undermine any help for those at the bottom.

Would my idea be perfect? Probably not. However, it does give one pause that the amount of money we utilized to bail out banks was larger than what it would have been to wipe the debt slate clean for every single American family.

It’s not context-free. You just don’t believe what he said. And you’re suggesting people should just do what your father did when education was 600% cheaper, or just inherit the family business and pay off an MBA that way.

I dunno, man. I give up.

Yes, a local church and/or some other NGO does come out to the Park frequently and does exclusively feed the homeless in the Park but it has nothing to do with the Occupy peeps, it was being done long before Occupy started to occupy the Park. My previous statement only applies to the Occupy food situation which is what your statement implied. No worries, just wanted to correct something I knew was not true. Again, carry on.

I don’t disbelieve what he said, merely that I don’t have enough information to make a judgment as to whether I should feel truly sympathetic to his stated plight.

I’ve already said this at least twice: The options are varied and multiple and the ones I gave were simply examples; not the ONLY options, just a few off the top of my head.

Yeah, I’d consider that overpaid.

I don’t necessarily think you have to be a little guy to understand how hard it is for the little guy though. Although I do believe it does help. One of the biggest problems with DC is that we have a bunch of rich people who make assumptions and treat this as a game rather than what it is for most of us-survival.

I’m not naive enough to believe that even with all the care my husband and I have undertaken that we are one catastrophe away from being just like those that are struggling. All it would take would be a lay off or a medical calamity and we’d be up a creek- just like a good portion of the country.

Besides, this is cost problem with the colleges, you should be taking it up with them.

Well you have something there. The problem is that it isn’t the politicians money so when it gets frittered away on some ill-conceived scheme they don’t suffer the penalties that a private business would inflict.

Another problem is that politicians “somehow” become rich after entering office. Even a guy like Paul Wellstone, who I considered as close to incorruptible as is possible in a politician, was a multimillionaire at his death.

Colleges obtain funding from federal, state and individual sources(often obtained through a federal program).

If they obtain funding from the federal government then it isn’t wrong to ask the federal government to look at pricing instead of just asking the college to look at pricing.

Oh I’m a strong proponent of penalties for those that abuse the public’s trust. And by penalty I don’t mean sternly worded letter of censure. I also think there ought to be a mechanism for recalling them if they choose to ignore the will of the people they purport to represent.

For too long the government has thumbed it’s nose while the population has said no to immunity, bailouts, wars without end, requiring people to buy a private commodity in large percentages, increasing taxes on the uber wealthy while preserving social safety nets like social security in well over majority proportions.

If you want to learn something about the Student Loan Industry go to Solari.com. Catherine Austin Fitts uncovers the Debt Mill created by that industry with the help of our wonderful reps in Washington.

My parents with one modest income managed to help send four of my siblings to get university educations in the ’50s through the ’70s.

My son worked through most of his college years, got a full Mew Mexico Lottery tuition scholarship and we and he still had to get about 20k in loans. He managed to get an excellent job while most of his friends have not been so lucky and they all have these debts.

Only about 26% of high school students finish a four year degree and they are carring huge debt. How are we going to maintain our standard of living or imporve it with these abysmal numbers.

The American government….you mean the International Elite Occupied former American government….

It is unbelievably ignorant to frame it as being YOU that pays his bills. He never even specified whether his student loans came from the federal government or a private bank on wall street; in the latter case, it has nothing to do with you unless you are actually a bank CEO trolling here. But regardless, the point is to have a system where we all get free college education, free single payer healthcare, etc. and we share the costs with each other based on a scale of who can pay the most. Everyone benefits from student loan forgiveness and free college education in a kind, generous, caring society, where it is not your place to pick apart whether you choose to sympathize with someone or not, their absolute rights are guaranteed whether you like it or not. It’s coming, you won’t stop it.

This person certainly is a part of the 99%, but personally, I am absolutely against imperialism and militarism, so I see one of the end goals here as shrinking the military down to a very small size, no more foreign bases, occupations, or wars, and no more military dictatorship in the white house, war on terror, or conditions that make people choose the military for economic reasons.

Well, yeah, cake-eating comes to mind first for me, too.

There are hundreds more stories at studentloanjustice.org/victims.htm , you can view them by state. In many cases, people even have their proffessional licences taken away because they defaulted on their student loan debt, thus ensuring they can never make enough money to pay the bills in the first place.

Guys, we have to remember: “scroll past the troll.”

Rafe comes in here, pounces to make the first comment, and everyone else spends their energy “debating” him.

He’s neither debatable nor educatable. Ignore him. Talk amongst yourselves. Don’t let a troll ruin this experience.

Fine with me, having a free debate and expressing personal opinion is a good thing. I’m just glad you didn’t tell me to go eff myself, ala “old dude”.

What our friend Rafe is doing here is what many Libertards and Right Wingers always do, attack individual stories while ignoring the systemic corruption and distruction that is evident.

They live in some fantasy reality where personal responsibility and the invisible hand of the free market will create a Capitalist utopia for all. The denial evident in this belief is amazing considering the distopia we inhabit today.

The only other conclusion i can reach is that they enjoy the distruction of Social Darwinism and find the easy targets of personal responsibility fair game. Many seem to worship the most corrupt of the predators because they represent the most fit individuals.

It seems to me I recently read somewhere that Ms. Warren is basically conservative, if not ultra-conservative, in the rest of her beliefs.

Please don’t feed the trolls. Just click on their user name, go to their activity page and flag them as inappropriate. What’s the point in letting your blood pressure increase? All they do is lie and mislead and you can’t argue with an ideologue. Flag ‘em and forget ‘em. Eventually that user will get enough flags and get booted. All they do is disrupt. Base your flags on that.

Assuming Rafe is a taxpayer, that’s exactly what people are asking him to do.

They’re asking him to pay off their student loans?!? Citation please.

There was a period in our history when education was valued by the society at large and that was reflected in public policy that subsidized education. This enabled large numbers of people to attend, learn, graduate and apply their skills towards supporting themselves and making this a better country through innovation, increased productivity and the like. The availability of an affordable education, including a small amount of debt, allowed multitudes this version of the American Dream and it enriched society. The beneficiaries of this policy included most of the people posting here, including Rafe.

Things have changed. Public policy does not support higher education as it once did. Community colleges, once free (or almost free), now charge fees that fall heavily on their “customers” who are typically poor even though they may be working while going to school. State schools also have lost much of their subsidies and people rack up an incredible amount of debt getting an education. These are public institutions.

The dumbing down of America continues unabated!

Oh, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe student debt is not relieved through bankruptcy. Why is that? Is it because people are not corporations? The demonization of the poor and struggling is a reflection of the erosion of empathy in the American public, much of it stemming from the politics of the last 30 years. Think cadillac queens.

In summary, there was a time when society believed in higher education as a common goal and implemented policy to support that. Over time, that support has diminished, with money going to other things, mostly war and lower taxes for the very rich.

We may not know the exact circumstances of any one individual but when we look at the aggregate, it’s obvious there is a systemic problem. Anyone who thinks the nation can thrive with this underlying educational structure problem is dreaming. Anyone who can blame the aggregate for their misfortune lacks empathy and shows little concern for the country’s future.

Hmm, I edit one word and lose all my formatting. This did not start out as one big paragraph. Sorry, folks

Just refresh the page. Viola! The formatting is back.

Do I have to stand in line to tell Rafe to go fuck himself? Where does the line form?

Just flag his activity page.

Very well put.

Plus they’re convinced it could never happen to THEM. Misfortune is only for the Little People, and even then, it’s their own fault…

I think it’s actually good for FDL to have people like Rafe spouting their dogmas here. We need to understand what we are up against and sharpen our critique of their selfish individualistic ideas.

We may never change his mind but others are listening.

I agree. And the Rafe types need whatever might by a miracle sink into his brain and heart.

don’t forget i also said to fuck the horse you rode to this fair……..

It mught help us understand you if we knew what your “old man’s” company is, if it is successful, and whether you work or plan to work there?

Well, if you are as young as that implies, MAYBE THAT EXPLAINS YOUR LACK OF PERSPECTIVE.