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Police pepper sprayed protesters outside of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) summit at Scottsdale’s Westin Kierland Hotel in Arizona. Community groups, labor and Occupy Phoenix all participated to shine a light on ALEC’s “corporate takeover of state legislatures.”
Hundreds gathered for nearly two hours behind barricades before the police decided to crack down. Phoenix police unleashed pepper spray on at least ten participating in the Occupy ALEC protest. A handful of people were arrested. Protesters moved back and forth between entrances. Police surrounded them and tried to contain them so they could not move around or go across the street they were lined up around.
KTAR reported at least six arrests were made, one arrest for assaulting a police officer. The news organization interviewed someone appalled by the use of pepper spray:
“A member of the Tohono O’odham Indian Tribe who was pepper sprayed was denied medical treatment,” Diane D’Angelo, a media volunteer with Occupy Phoenix, said. “There is no reason to be pepper spraying American citizens who are trying to exercise their first amendment right.
“I think it is pretty typical of what happens to people who don’t have money, or access to power in this country at present. You get turned away, arrested or pepper sprayed. Of course it was excessive.”
Phoenix police alleged protesters assaulted them with nail-filled sticks. That is basically police speak for when we were doing “crowd control” we were touched by the sticks holding up protesters’ signs. The Fire Department was on the scene to wash out the eyes of those pepper sprayed.
Similar to the way NYPD has fortified the New York Stock Exchange to protect it from Occupy Wall Street, it seems the Phoenix Police blocked off all the entrances to the hotels to protesters and made it so there was no way any person attending the ALEC summit came in contact with protesters. That is why legislators at the conference were able to tell AZ Central they were not aware there were protests happening at the conference.
[*More on the ALEC protest action that continues tomorrow.]
Firedoglake’s premier live blog continues now. Here is a Twitter list to follow for the latest updates from various occupations around the country. Right now, there is an Occupy Wall Street march to go confront President Obama, who is at a fundraising dinner in New York tonight.
OCCUPY WALL STREET LIVESTREAM
11:41 PM Large group has mobilized to help defend Occupy Charlottesville from a raid (via @BobBrigham)
NBC29 has this photo of about 15 willing to commit civil disobedience and get arrested.
11:24 PM Today, Occupy South Bend declared victory, packed up and went home. I was out touring and never made it to Occupy South Bend in Indiana. South Bend is right next to Mishawaka, where I was born and raised. I am very proud of the fact that some people in South Bend occupied the city for two months. It would have been nice to visit, meet them and give them some supplies.
This idea of declaring victory actually seems smart to me. The tactic of occupying is still an essential part of this movement to me. But, this is a sort of art of war kind of move. Occupy South Bend may have been weakening and so they saw their limitations and decided instead of floundering they would declare victory and disappear for a while. Maybe, they will return later. If they want to return, they will not have an eviction in their past.
11:00 PM Josh Harkinson and Andrew Katz, reporters, approached penned in “Dinner with Barack” protest and tried to do interviews when they found out NYPD wasn’t letting them leave. The police pushed them out. About 15-20 minutes later, they finally let protesters go. They had been standing for 2 hours, were cold and angry. Legal is saying what NYPD did was legal and was taking down information.
10:00 PM Tom Morello plays Occupy LA — with 300 Occupy LA protesters still in jail (via @RushVarela)
9:53 PM Legal trying to get protest “unfrozen” so that protesters can leave the area.
9:51 PM Is NYPD considering putting protesters into dump trucks? (via @JohnKnefel)
9:29 PM Seems group outside Obama fundraiser has been “detained” or penned in and are not allowed to leave the area for any reason until Obama leaves the hotel.
9:22 PM NYPD guarding Obama. OWS is dubbing Obama “President of the 1%” (via @LukeRudkowski)
8:50 PM Sanitation in LA now says they will haul away 30 tons of debris before cleanup of former site of Occupy LA camp is finished. I’d just like to make clear if they are upset about all the “debris” or materials/equipment they have to clear they could have chosen to not raid the camp. They also could have chosen to never allow the camp to setup. The city did decide to tolerate the camp, which I think was the right decision. Now, why after two months it is suddenly worth prohibiting I do not know.
This story on sanitation workers and the cost of taking care of debris just amplifies this meme being hurled at Occupy protesters: “We don’t want to pay for your freedom of speech and assembly.” I don’t know if this has enough traction to neutralize the movement. I don’t know if people are getting wise to how cities are unnecessarily deploying resources to contain and crack down on the movement.
8:48 PM Photo of NYPD freezing “Free Speech Zone” outside Sheraton until Obama is all clear (via @dontbeaputz)
8:33 PM Minimum bail for Occupy LA protesters in jail is $5000.
8:20 PM The march made it to the sidewalk across from the hotel. They are likely to be moved.
8:10 PM You know, over a month ago Ed Schultz swore Occupy protesters were really frustrated Obama supporters. (Photo from @LukeRudkowski)
8:02 PM Livestream team at “Dinner with Barack” – what OWS is calling the protest outside the Obama fundraiser
7:44 PM March at 50th and 7th Avenue and almost to Sheraton. There is a load of barriers being put up around the hotel. Protesters will be corralled.
7:36 PM Occupy Charlottesville facing imminent raid. Appears local press has been told they will be evicted from the park too when police move in on the occupation. They will not be allowed to stay close to the area to report.
Each eviction, Americans learn a little bit more about where freedom of the press, freedom of speech and other freedoms have become restricted or neutralized.
7:23 PM Anti-Barack Obama march in Times Square. Helicopters are out. NYPD is flanking. Another fun night of Occupy Wall Street action. (via @DiceyTroop)
6:43 PM Big Occupy Boston march happening now – follow @LejlaOWS
6:30 PM Another photo of march headed to Sheraton where Obama is at for a fundraiser (via @johnknefel)
6:25 PM Photo of protest headed to fundraiser Obama is attending (via @chrislaker)
152 Comments
It appears that protesters are going to need to invest in some safety goggles or gas masks. (shakes head)
Are those things made in America? Hmmm.
Here we go:
The second one has a face shield too!
http://www.labsafety.com/search/safety%2Bgoggles/
Olberman interviewed an LA Protester named P.J. Davenport. She said that the cops were taking DNA swabs! She had no idea why, but remarked that it was a very strange way the cops barreled into the area.
Wells Fargo CEO John Stumpf Mic Checked at NC State by Occupy on 11/30/11 – Occupy Raleigh Day 47
This is how you do a mic-check folks. Couldn’t happen to a more worthy schmo.
Occupy MN livestream
The tents are going up.
n.a. poe vs. the police state
Three levels of occupation #DuttonHall #UCDavis #OccupyUCDavis
#UCDavis students turn DuttonHall in Paulo Freire Open University 24 hour study space. #ows >>Brilliant! Love it!
Kevin, that latest time stamp is awesome! They out smarted the cops.
Tarheel,
I really liked that Wells Fargo Mic Check clip.
It appears that the PTB strategy for this long Winter of Discontent is solidifying. Harrass, arrest, gas, fine, and gather all kinds of data on the insurgents.
As the Movement grows the supression will intensify and i fear what the Overlords and their minions will unleash when the Movement explodes next year.
Anne Saker, The Oregonian: Occupy Portland: Parks bureau says it needs at least $85,000 to revive Chapman, Lownsdale squares
I’ve got a feeling that the occupiers will have a great many different techniques and supporters in the coming months.
Tom Fucoloro, Central District News: Hundreds of Garfield High students walk out to protest budget cuts – UPDATED
Thanks for the continued coverage, Kevin. I imagine this is the type of thing that will happen when protestors target the oligarchs directly.
My update for Occupy Austin. We (Occupy Supply) were written about in the UT Austin newspaper, The Daily Texan.
The PtB depend on people obeying them. When the obedience and the fear disappear, they have nothing. That is a cultural shift. It is urgent that that happen for the sake of the planet. The only question is whether this movement can pull enough of it off to accomplish enough change to get us out of the economic an political cul-de-sac we are in.
That was so good.
WHOOP!
With the Senate action on indefinite detention, without charges, or legal representation, and now cops in riot gear evicting the peaceful political protesters of #OWS (in the wee hours, because, you know, they’re a health risk, so we attack at dawn, pepper-spray drawn).
Is it not clear enough: The USA is a police state.
I’m really enamored with the photo accompanying the article. It’s just stunning.
That is an incredible photo with the article. Good job, Occupy Austin folks.
That it is. Reminds me of one of those Renaissance type paintings.
Thomas Jefferson weeps.
Our own Declaration of Independence says:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
I think the ghosts of the Founding Fathers are saying we must oppose the U.S. government as it now exists.
Sedition? Or patriotism?
That! That is exactly what they are afraid of.
That is a great slogan.
I’ve got to rest. Down for the night.
To all Occupy Encampments and Protesters: “Good Night and Good Luck!”
It seems most likely to me that the super wealthy should be removed from their towers of power wherever they may be and just laws to the benefit of the people be instituted.
Standing up to PTB IS an existential threat to them, after all. They count on follow-the-leader.
This ongoing chemical warfare attack against demonstrators, with such chemical weapons in hands of police (and tasers, and guns, and drones, and sonic weapons, etc.) is outrageous.
But then, for years now US troops at the Guantanamo prison have attacked defenseless prisoners with pepper spray as part of their brutal “extraction” procedures… and there were no mass protests over this. By letting torture slide by, the groundwork was set for increased domestic repression.
My emphasis on torture coverage over the years was not simply personal. I identified torture as the dark heart of the state repressive apparatus. We should demand the immediate release of all Occupy protesters in all cities.
Congress and the government are setting the stage for large-scale domestic indefinite incarceration of those US citizens they label terrorists, or providing “material support” to those they label terrorists.
Key words: established order. Meaning the Wall Street-K Street-Congress Axis (or its state and local manifestations.
Well definitely sedition. Not sure that there is consensus on how far the alterations should go. Authority, yes, but in specific areas. Government, meaning the Constitutional regime, not yet, and probably seeking a restoration of large portions of the Constitution, for most folks. Head of state is kinda a moot point for now. The head of state gets replaces, or not, in January 2013. Most folks occupying probably are not going there.
Definitely, yes. The question is the scope of “country”.
Answer: Both sedition and patriotism. Is there any law against that?
We are in a police state. “Don’t need a weather man to tell me which way the wind blows”
Yep.
First they come for …
Then they come for …
.
.
Then they come for us.
Amazing how that lesson is missed.
Slippery slope is always used against the good guys, never against the evil doers among the PTB.
It is increasingly clear how we allow so-called “enemy combatants” to be treated determines how we as citizens will be treated collectively. The protester — the dissenter — in all these actions going on all over the country is viewed as a criminal, not as a citizen voicing his or her grievances against government. The protester is treated as a suspect for being out in the open and taking a stand. That should not be tolerated by any American.
And to think that the last bout of peaceful civil disobedience was as short a time ago as in the 60 & 70s, in the living memory of a large % of the U.S. Rightwingers have done a masterful job in the intervening decades to destroy not only the accomplishments of those decades but to make the whole memory dirty and disreputable.
While we have been living off of past accomplishments, PTB have been planning and prepping for next confrontation, which is now.
That’s it eCAHN, right there. You’ve nailed the whole problem in a nutshell.
Even after all the protests, after all evidence, and even after the PTB don’t even really try to hide their fascist and un-American tendencies, (voting in the Senate to detain American citizens forever without ever being charged is about as unAmerican as it gets) the vast, vast, vast majority of Americans are STILL either ambivalent, or actively against, those protesting.
The stupid fucking assholes apparently don’t know that once the protesters are gone, and once the poor are taken care, they’ll be coming after their upper middle class asses too.
First it was the Muslims, but I’m not a Muslim so I don’t care..
Then it was whistleblowers, but I’m not a whistleblower so I don’t care..
Then it was DFH protesting in the streets, but I’m not a DFH so I don’t care…
Fucking identical and too many people have no clue.
Are the people making peaceful political protest in parks and plazas criminals? No. Have these people been treated like criminals (or worse, terrorists)? Yes. Pretty much sums it up.
Golly, Jeff, you are so on the money with this comment. It goes to the urgency that a lot of folks in the Occupy movement, and not just the “usual suspects” are expressing. And the way yesterday’s vote on the Udall amendment went down has some Tea Party rank-and-file scratching their heads; in their minds Rand Paul came through.
We thought that the debt ceiling crisis was off the rails and that it couldn’t get much worse. It can get much, much worse. In two and a half months we are where the anti-Vietnam war movement was in 1968 (after three years of protests). Likely this spring is going to be a real corker.
If Obama does not deliver on his threat to veto the Defense Authorization bill as it stands, the movement is in the hands of vets and active military (and what few police) decide to say no to un-Constitutional legal authorizations and orders. And there seem to be a few flag officers in the military who are not pleased with the extension of the “battlefield” to the “homeland”. If it gets signed into law, we enter a situation in which folks will have to relatively quickly decide which side they are on. And that likely first of all is the courts. But who will have the immediate standing to sue to overturn the provision?
Thanks for pointing this out. In my post last night I reminded people that what the police say is designed to make the police actions justified. And the media rarely ask about the wording. If the police spokesman says that “Nail filled sticks were used to assault the officer, well then that must be what happened.”
It would be good to see if their is footage of the person “resisting arrest” and “assaulting the police officer”
Remember how the police tried to say they were “cut off and blocked” by the Davis protesters? The whole world saw that it was BS. One student pulled her hand back slightly and that was “resisting arrest.”
The media will not do this for us. That feels like ‘advocacy” to them. Yet they will “embed” in the police force that is doing the raiding, as if that isn’t advocacy for the police point of view.
I’ll second that OFG.
So true TD, but this time it is about the Whole Enchilada. Consessions and token moves will not satisfy the Movement, at least i hope not.
This is probably the last chance we have to regain our Democracy. I hope we and the world are up to the challenge.
I have dear relatives like that.
Their hearts are in the right place, but both have good jobs and just don’t see what the problem is. And it’s not as though they don’t allow me great latitude to ‘splain it to them when we get together.
Case in point: arbitrary seizure of property without due process.
Tis why I’m posting every video I can find from these confrontations.
You have to ask the next question. Do you believe the courts and the supreme court will help protect us from this police state?
It is much much worse already than many are aware of.
I’ve been on web only sporadically owing to TGiving & outdoor work (3 days without rain!), so link lost to history. But somewhere over the past week or so I saw that Goldman Sucks alums have taken over Greece, Italy, Spain in bloodless coups and despite huge protests previously in Greece.
And that’s on top of right extremist govts already in place in U.K., Australia, Canada, Germany, France. And those are only the ones I know about.
It’s not just the U.S. that’s AFU, but the entire developed economy world where the 0.1%ers are looting the rest with gay abandon.
There is no port in this storm.
I have difficulty at the moment imagining what a concession would look like. The elites are incompetent in their corruption and corrupt in their incompetence. They have crashed the system that was benefiting them so well and exposed the game to ordinary people. At this point, one would have to have a New Deal to co-opt the movement. I don’t see that happening as long as the Wall Street Media dominates the political conversation and the 1% can carpet-bomb the public consciousness before any election.
Good question. I absolutely don’t know how they will come down. The issue crosses so many previously unbridgeable divides. My gut tells me that we are in deep shit.
Europe is headed for collapse for the third time in a hundred years. The PIIGS have all lost their soverignty already. The governments are not representative. They are appointed.
The CB has agreed to support the euro, an act that for some nations could cause a collapse of their own curency. We could experience severe inflation, especially if the euro goes down. What currency would the fed get paid back in, if it gets paid back at all?
This says nothing about the 16 trillion we gave the MOTU to make them even more wealthy. We are in a game stacked against us. Our hope lies with OWS and things like that video TD posted. People must be told.
The legal system will fail us. Without question. It already has, and that will continue. Recall that the Declaration was in no way grounded in law, was in fact an outlaw document at the moment it was written. But it became a rallying point to a contest of power, and the better power, in that place and time, won. This will also come to a contest of power, of that I am pretty certain. And I am very worried.
TarheelDem. I don’t know if you have the technology, but if you are familiar with YouTube annotations, see if you can repost some of the videos and point out the actions that the police call “assault” or that police call “resisting” arrest.
Use the annotation feature to highlight this. If you can, find different videos of the same event before and after the action. Follow the protesters and police up until they are taken away. Try and call out features or badge numbers of cops and identifying clothing of protesters who did the actions. This will be useful if there will be lawsuits filed. It is also useful for the narrative we can use vs. the narrative the police spokes people give to the media.
Then drop a note to the local media. ‘In your coverage of the story yesterday you mentioned that one person was arrested for assaulting the police. I have collected and annotated the video footage of the “assault” and I think the police claim is laughable. Please look for yourself. Then when you run your story again be sure to show the footage of the “assault” or at least note that you don’t believe that the “assault” will stand up in court.
It is important that we provide, “The other side” of the story, especially since the is no “official” spokesperson for our side demanding that our side be heard. The media are supposed to do that, but they are conditioned to wait for “both sides” to bring them their stories. Then they say, “The truth, lies somewhere in the middle.” cut to commercial.
It’s global. China is very worried about the Occupy movement reaching there. The Indian PtB have opened the country to big box stores. And you saw what went down in the UK today. Even Israel is feeling it.
The QE today just reopens the casino at the same time that austerity is causing the bond vampires to go after Germany.
I think it’s only a matter of time before local scrips challenge national currencies and create a legal firestorm about “counterfeiting”.
What people are discovering is that really picky little regulations can be used to try to frustrate people who want to take direct action in creating solutions.
But ask yourself, what exactly the 1% are looting. It’s social claims against production, a bunch of artworks, some fine wines. Most of their wealth is bits on a computer database. They are more vulnerable than they realize.
Let’s face it: corruption abounds in this country. Incompetence is its first cousin.
Um, no.
Like the corrupt USG, the 0.1%ers will continue to use force as long as they can. If they kill the gold egg laying goose in the process, well they might end up with bruises on their foreheads, but big bank accounts in some haven somewhere. (Corzine, for example, has several hundred millions I am informed by a friend who claims to know.)
You are correct that the PTB are incompetent, but they’ve gotten to the top of the mountain despite that, so they don’t believe they are. Meritocracy is the current word for the older concept of divine law of kings.
Folks in local Occupy media committees are beginning to do those annotations. I’m busy dumping everything I can find in the comments here so that Kevin has more grist for his liveblog and you have a better idea about how wide and deep this movement is becoming.
OWS against $trillions. Seems like a stacked deck to me. Pepper spray costs $1.89? Bullets? $2.95? (I have no idea how much any of that costs, just making up #s to make a point.)
Yep, and it’s all legal.
The use of force depends on the obedience of folks to the 1%’s orders. If it is truly global, there are no havens. That’s the contradiction they are facing. If there are no havens, there is nothing they can use to buy obedience. The real question is whether they are too incompetent to realize these limitations.
Meritocracy is what I have for a while called “the divine right of managers”.
Not so much. The ’400′ have their bank accounts in safe havens and getaway mansions.
On edit: There are very few who really ‘count.’ So small havens are OK and those will always exist.
There is another question that has to be asked: at what point do the OWS movements start fighting back? They can’t win the battle but frustration will out at some point.
Look what demos got in Greece…
And brute force is the ultimate value. How will OWs fare when subjected to shock and awe? I believe we will find out. To the extent that non-violence relies on shaming the oppressors, I believe we will find that the oppressors are without shame.
Cool!
Those trillions have no reality. Look how fast the PtB erased several trillion with the CDS meltdown. My reading of he current trend is that the PtB are going to crash the international monetary system–worst case–through their predatory actions. Anything less than the worst case requires some easing up on the 99%. Worst case, btw is a dark ages scenario. You know. Bye bye to coffee tea and citrus fruit (unless you are fortunate where you live); your cuisine is determined by the local climate. Rummage becomes wealth.
And with no rummage
, they cannot buy the loyalty of anyone, least of all those who are skilled at and willing to use force. Those folks will become free lancers.
Now can we talk about the 99% being too big to fail. That’s about urgency.
By definition.
And I want to say aagain that you have done and continue to do truly amazing work, TD. My admiration for you is without limitation.
Don’t forget that it is really the mercenaries that will take the point, and most of those are Third Worlders with no cultural allegiance to the places where they will be deployed.
But, as I typed, all of that is irrelevant to 400. They can always find a place to live in huge luxury. Doesn’t need to be large.
By way of historic comparison, Gilded Age U.S. was prolly just as bad if not worse than now, & 400 survived in fine fettle.
Yes, did you see the video of UC Davis?
Yeppers.
Even in chaos, it does not take much to buy the services of killers. Never has, never will. Let’s not be naive about that.
U.C. Davis video, including chancellor ‘walk of shame,’ proves the point that oppressors have no shame. She seemed more annoyed by the insects sitting on the ground (yuck) than anything else.
Of course, and that was just the appetizer. What makes anyone think the use of bullets would be met with any greater rejection by the Establishment forces?
If OWS is subjected to “shock and awe” then so to are the American people.
The images of the police attacking peaceful protesters is very powerful to the public. Police getting into a fight with attacking protesters is not.
Images matter.
You saw how the Black Bloc actions messed up the image of the OccupyOakland group. Those vandals, “fought back” and it wasn’t helpful.
I want to help the media see just how abusive the police are and how they lie about the actions of the protesters to the media. I also want the media to see that people who are identified as protesters are not necessarily part of OWS and who don’t follow their principles.
This is not about purity of the movement but to keep the make it clear the extremes are not the massive majority.
That is why I am worried. We’ve already seen enough to detect the trends and patterns of behavior by all the players. It does not require genius to project those trends out to their logical extensions.
If there really is an armegeddon where the world monetary system collapses, there won’t be any “money”. It will all be gone replaced by some new one. The ATM will be empty – literally. But not to worry, the PTB won’t let that happen.They are competent, remember?
Here’s a true story that validates OFG above. We had 21 people at my place on thanksgiving. I put the video on since we are generally progressive in my household – - but not all. A few were highly upset that we were angry at the police. They were doing the right thing these few insisted. Had to calm the waters.
Oh joy! Third world mercenaries meet Second Amendment absolutists. Imagine some of your neighbors’ response to a Chadian or Mauritanian or Colombian with an M-16.
Let me be clear, I’m not advocating force by OWS. I’m saying we cannot match the PTB with force. The images and other symbolic factors have some power, greatest while OWS is just viewed as a nuisance. But I don’t see the general population expressing any real outrage or physical support. If it comes to killing, I think most will stay home cowering in front of their TVs. I hate to be a wet blanket, but I’ve been thinking about this stuff for a long time. I got in trouble here years ago for urging the need to discuss what a revolution would entail. I thought we should suss it out early. Now we are in it, and I don’t think we are prepared to deal with the levels of brute force, i.e., killings and disappearings, that are set to be deployed against OWS. So, I’m worried.
Typically revolutions turn when the establishment forces are ordered to attack people in their personal networks- family, friends, neighbors. That is what collapsed East Germany’s regime and Ceaucescu’s.
I keep looking for justice there. Not seeing it.
We both know the weaponry is not limited to such toys, TD. Except on our side.
That’s why I made the point about mercenaries without ties to the places where they get deployed, TD.
I would also point out that “typically” does not control here and now. There have never been available the weaponry and survellance capabilities in any other situation that are available here and now. These are real problems for our side.
So a fdew will jump out of windows, but there will still be 395 left.
And they will live in luxury forever.
Isn’t that what life is all about? /s
Philly Mayor Michael Nutter Mic-Checked at Harvard
I think you are right. And they will still be the PTB.
Nothing like talking yourself into “Why bother?” is it.
Happily, the 2nd amendment defenders who I know hunt on my property and I have informed all 3 that if armageddon happens, I expect them to take me in and protect me.
Not a system solution to be sure, and don’t mean to rub salt into wounds, but works for me.
And making the more general point that there are 2 sides to 2nd amendment rabids. One is my beekeeper, who is otherwise a legit flower child. Another is environmental movement defender (open space for hunting), and the third is just an ordinary, former Mainer (charming accent) of advanced age who just likes outdoors.
I think the current situation in Syria is a possible parallel for one future… however there is unlikely to be any sort of external pressure that the rest of the world could place on the US… unless somehow the US economy collapses in such a way as to leave other countries in a relatively stronger position.
Ah, Peoria:
This is why I am generally in favor of the 2nd Amendment in its original intent to help prevent tyrannical government.
I don’t want my RW neighbors to be the only ones with guns when globalist civilization collapses.
(And here I though I’d never get any use out of those survivalist books I bought for Y2K… )
It is difficult to compare what is happening here in the belly of the, most powerful superpower, Beast with any other country or historical Movement. The other factor is that this Movement is Global which may be a positive even if we think the world revolves around us.
Whatever the outcome we are in for a wild ride.
The two in my family are a hunter/environmentalist and Navy competition target shooter. But I have had neighbors in NC who are itching to defend their freedoms.
Indeed.
“Take Our Children, Please!
A Modest Proposal for Occupy Wall Street ”
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175473/tomgram%3A_steve_fraser%2C_%22de-fault_is_ours%22/
I seem to remember an earlier version of this from sometime early in the OWS movement.
I don’t take that as a “why bother” position. I take it as a “we need to come up with something additional to succeed” position.
Casey Jones, WSJV: South Bend Occupy Movement declares victory
Exactly right, up to the “unless.” There will be no “unless.” Where would the “unless” come from? It would have to be Outer Space.
“Occupyers warn of a winter of discontent”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57334213/occupyers-warn-of-a-winter-of-discontent/
“On Thursday a group of protesters from Occupy Washington [DC] planned to set out on a march from the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial on the National Mall to King’s gravesite in Atlanta. Thursday is the anniversary of Rosa Parks’ refusal to give up her seat on a Montgomery, Alabama, bus in 1955.”
I think there’s an intermediate soln to guns. Haven’t a clue as to what it is.
I do have a clue as to what ‘mixed’ economy should be wrt markets and regs.
But don’t know enough about guns regs to opine about how to prevent abuse (mainly in communities that I don’t dwell in) vs. responsible guns owners I know.
As I hang out in leftie blog, I find myself defending gun users. So much knee jerk reaction against, and so little considered opinion on other side.
Doesn’t mean I am against measures that would prevent poor kids of color from being shot thru the walls of their homes. Just not knowledgeable enough to know how to protect them, and have just enough info to know that gun banning measures, writ large, will not only not be passed into law, but will not address the underlying problem.
C’mon, that’s just fantasy, TD. Even assuming a willingness to back OWS, rifles won’t do it. AND, against body armored opponents, only a head shot works. How many of your neighbors can guarantee a head shot? I ask that as a former competition shooter, knowing that I can’t do it.
Oh I think it’s possible after a number of years the rest of the world might get tired of our antics and just coordinate a massive surprise nuke strike or something.
It’s a house of cards and 9/11 is the foundation of the house that I think is one of the things the PTB does not want found out, they see the shit crumbling in front of their eyes with OWS happening.
Wealth is a reflection of power and control. Power is really essential to keep wealth. You can run but you can’t hide.
These Post Apocalypse nightmares are not the inevitable outcome we want to see. We still have a rich and productive world with plenty of resources to maintain a rational standard of living for all.
The difficult task will be to wrest control of these resources and use them for the benefit of the many not the few.
If the “400″ are all cowering in their underground bunkers with their gold bars, I suppose it’s possible the rest of us who might survive the period of chaos might start rebuilding society without them.
Don’t bogart that joint. Look, I like and respect you, but that ain’t gonna happen. AND, if it did, how could we view that as a victory for our side? We’d be dead.
I’m going to bed. Sweet dreams, freedom lovers. Maybe we’ll all have some better ideas tomorrow.
Jets heading for Iran, perhaps as we speak. Or Pak.
I had this conversation with a former colleague before the Iraq invasion. He looked as me as though I were nuts and said, “Well it’s going to happen.”
…
The 400 will leave us nothing to rebuild with.
They did see the helicopters leaving from the U.S. embassy in Saigon and have no intention of having any such powerful images survive their destruction of the global economy.
That is why OWS must be seen as the preferable alternative to global collapse, civil war, or any of the rest of the nightmare scenarios.
Must convince enough people of that, especially those few % who are what some call “the controller class” – those who are the instruments the 1% use to exert their power over the rest of us.
I’m not sure who “we” in your sentence is, but the spreading of the movement to cover the geography and involve more of the 99% is for me getting the “we” together. And at the same time out of that growing numerical power teasing out the issues and defining the solutions from the ground up. The objective is a process. The process presumes: nonviolence, inclusiveness, absence of privilege, freedom to act and respond to the consequences. The process develops those “something additional to succeed” through group-sourcing insights. The human beings with the current status of PtB can involve themselves on the same non-privileged basis as anyone else.
Making that process work is and will continue to be a major challenge because of two collateral problems: free riding (marginal participation) and attempts to co-opt or sabotage (hidden agendas).
That cannot be worked out in theory; it has to be worked out in multiple general assemblies and work groups. And in direct action.
Hold that thought NY, keeping morale high and focusing on a vision of a better future will be critical in the coming months.
This is cliche, but one intermediate solution to dealing with guns is “Don’t take your gun to town.” I’m not sure how that works out as to enforcement on those who don’t adopt that principle. The Wyatt Earp method seems a little old-fashioned.
They protect you, and you whip up some of your great cooking for them. Sounds like a win-win!
All of this apocalyptic stuff is fantasy, rc. We do not know the future. Spinning out dystopian fantasies and less dystopian fantasies are equivalent.
I’m by nature a pessimist; to be honest I’m surprised to be here as I spent most of the 1980′s expecting WWIII to get me.
That is why I am so glad OWS came along as maybe it’s way out of “the bottleneck” as it is termed in some science-fiction – if we can just somehow survive being squeezed through the point of maximum pressure on our civilization, we might get out of the trap and be in for much broader horizons in the future.
You know who “we” is, TD, it’s all of us who want OWS to lead to a transformation to a more just society. You can’t seriously doubt my devotion to that goal. That’s “we.”
I’m just making the point that the process you describe and rely on can be wonderful, yet still get short-circuited by application of shock and awe brute force, and none of us are adequately addressing that likelihood. I’m hoping someone has a better solution to that problem than I do. Truth be told, my special talents run more to accurately anticipating upcoming problems and risks than in devising wonderful creative solutions to those problems. We can’t all have all the various talents, I have what I have. But, I am also quite good at recognizing an effective solution when I am presented with one, and I don’t see one yet. But you don’t ever have to wonder about what side I am on, TD. It is always the side of regular people.
Now, I really am going to bed. Tomorrow is another day.
Works for me to be sure.
But I am all about systemic solutions. And on that front I haven’t a clue.
So back to topic at hand, what do folks think of the idea of a march from the MLK Memorial in DC to his gravesite in Atlanta?
Having already had the “NYCMarch2DC”, and now this one planned, do you think that long-range marches can help keep the movement going since most of the big encampments are now gone?
I agree. There are sufficient original or recyclable resources. There is work to be done. There are folks who can do the work. They are not getting together because of the rules of the financial and legal systems. Occupy Wall Street is exposing those contradictions through direct action. There are empty buildings (even buildings that have been empty for a decade); there are a significant and currently more diverse group of homeless folks who need protection from the elements. The empty building might be used as a tax loss. But take the direct action of moving in and creating a homeless shelter from an unused asset, and in come the cops to enforce ownership. To get around that you need financing to buy the property, the hassle of incorporation as a non-profit, a $700 attorney fee and $300 or more registration fee. The legal and financial rules block legal direct action to resolve a critical issue.
Meanwhile the PtB are carrying out Schumpeterian “creative destruction of assets” on a carefully crafted global economic system that is highly interdependent, and operates with just-in-time supply chains. Stipmining resources, stripmining assets, stripmining labor. Stripmining the very things that keep that tightly coupled just-in-time network of supply chains producing.
The choices are either (1) the PtB coughs up the money to get the system working again or (2) people work around the existing financial rules and legal rules and just haul off and get things done. So far the answer to 1 is “we won’t” and to 2 is “you can’t; it’s against the rules”
“Inspired in turn by Swift, I want to suggest that we put in motion a similar undertaking: on January 16th, Martin Luther King Day, citizens from around the country should gather at the New York Stock Exchange on Wall Street. Let’s call this macabre gathering — with luck and even worse times, it should be mammoth — “We Surrender” or “Restore Debtor’s Prisons” or “De-Fault Is Ours” or “Collateralize Us.” And plan on a mirthful day of mourning.”
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175473/tomgram%3A_steve_fraser%2C_%22de-fault_is_ours%22/
How ’bout this; a day of symbolically “selling ourselves” to Wall St.?
That was not a question of what side, but what the scope of “we” was.
But objection (2) as you have said can only be effective if everybody agrees to follow and enforce “the rules.”
If the controllers stop enforcing the bidding of the PtB, it’s game over for the PtB.
So, the whole trick is to make it more and more unpalatable for the controllers to just keep up “business as usual.”
My “how bout this” is the Credit Card Company Epiphany: by January 6 (Christian holiday of Epiphany), if credit card companies don’t reduce their top rates to 6% (remember they are currently getting free money), there is a debt strike.
But it’s neither here nor there unless you are participating in a general assembly that is considering these sort of ideas.
By the way, Occupy Nashville held a “human market” to protest Correction Corporation of America and the prison-industrial-complex.
That is Gandhi’s principle of nonviolent resistance. Making it unpalatable for controllers to keep up business as usual. And that embraces the tactics of the labor strike as well.
OK, I answered both. See ya in the morning.
Property is an entitlement as surely as anything is, and the people can take it away from the wealthy, or dissolve their money with the stroke of a pen (or more likely these days, the tap of a mouse or keyboard).
They who have so much to lose have much to fear from us who have so little left, and that held for ransom.
Video– “Crossing Police Lines: US cops defect to OWS” (RT.Com, Dec. 1, 2011)
Re Iceland:
Re Ireland:
LAPD Descends on Occupy LA and Destroys an American Flag
(pant, pant, pant, deep Breath)
Okay, I know I’m late. Tarheel, gotcha a cuppa joe from the Diner.
GoooooD Morning, Occupy!
I know you are sleeping, but when you wake up and get here there is big thanks waiting for that clip. People need to know about the fear and duress cops are under that support OWS.
Occupy Washington, DC:
Server is back up with a few bugs.
Kevin has some new info:
After watching Livestream clips of occupy around the world and noticing the drummers I have chosen this song for today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G4jnaznUoQ
OWS-NY
They have several things planned for today and great entertainment as Kevin has noted. This clip is but one of the events:
Livestream is having some indigestion this morning. Too many belches for me. Will slip over to UStream or Global to see what I can find.
On Global:
Occupy Orlando is demonstrating at UC Florida.
Chanting: Rise Up UCF!
Boston Eviction notice Pending.
Occupy K Street is filming but there is no sound. The camp site looks good and very clean this morning.
http://www.livestream.com/occupykst
Occupy Boston seems to be still in court seeking a restraining order.
Erin Sherbert, SF Weekly, Snitch: Occupy SF Given Noon Deadline to Evacuate Justin Herman Plaza
William J. Drummond, San Francisco Chronicle Open Forum: UC Chancellor Robert J. Birgeneau’s dilemma
The temporary restraining order against eviction that Occupy Boston previously obtained expires today. Today is the hearing concerning whether a permanent restraining order would issue. If none does, it would seem likely, but not certain, that Mayor Menino would take steps to evict.
See for details
http://www.occupyboston.org/2011/12/01/statement-steps-suffolk-superior-court/
David Weidner, Wall Street Journal: Occupy Shocker: A Realistic, Actionable Idea
The blind squirrel finds a nut.
There is now legal precedent protecting camping at state houses in two states — Tennessee and South Carolina. That might be an option for Occupy Boston after eviction.
Of course, the City of Boston is playing fast and loose of the facts of the encampment, struggling to prove a health and safety hazard to justify its suppression of free speech. That could fail. And then there would be attempt to find other health and safety evidence that will pass judicial muster.