(update below)
Various “progressive voices” that agree or sympathize with GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul’s positions on wars, foreign policy and civil liberties have spoken in favor of the possible impact Paul could have on debate in this country during the 2012 Election. Those individuals have been quickly met with fervent disapproval from liberals who have reflexively suggested that any comments that could be considered supportive of Paul essentially mean one is “endorsing” Paul, urging people to support someone who opposes reproductive rights for women, arguing there are only marginal differences between Paul and President Barack Obama and that Paul just might be their secret political hero.
As Greenwald notes, this is what his attempt to honestly discuss Paul’s possible value and role in the election has garnered. It is likely the kind of response Matthew Stoller of the Naked Capitalism blog and Robert Scheer of Truthdig have had to confront.
I have mostly watched from the sidelines up to this point, but I have paid attention to what has been written. I intend to raise some more questions, expand the discussion and further interrogate the appalling state of electoral politics in America the way that these “progressive voices” have done.
First, let’s establish the following: (1) I am not a supporter of Ron Paul’s campaign and I have no intention of donating money to the campaign (2) I sympathize with many of the positions that have compelled “progressive voices” to value his presence in the 2012 Election (3) I respect Paul’s right to run in the election and do consider him to be a serious candidate and (4) I fully expect liberals to reflexively point to Paul’s ultra-conservative positions, which lead him to support policies that particularly hurt women, minorities and even gays and doing so will only reinforce the points that I am making here.
Reason magazine frames the dilemma progressives are confronted with best: “What to say about a presidential candidate who wants to end foreign and domestic wars and protect civil liberties against the imperial presidency?”
For many progressives, this was what they were dedicated to as activists when George W. Bush was president. They engaged in activism against the Iraq and Afghanistan War. They were opposed to more wars in countries like Pakistan or Iran and fought hard especially in 2006 to show that the Bush Administration might be going to war with Iran. They protested Bush’s use of torture and called for Guantanamo Bay to be shut down. They opposed Bush’s use of warrantless wiretapping and the expansion of surveillance state in America. They were opposed to the imperial presidency of Bush and were even moved to call for the impeachment of Cheney and Bush for committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.
I am certain many progressives hoped Obama would clearly be on the other side of many of these issues. But, as his campaign for re-election kicks into high gear, this is the reality, a part of the “new normal” as ACLU referred to it.
President Barack Obama has shielded officials who committed crimes during the Bush administration from accountability for engaging in warrantless wiretapping, torture, or rendition; invoked state secrets to prevent transparency; denied detainees habeas corpus and signed a National Defense Authorization Act that grants the military extraordinary powers to detain US citizens indefinitely without trial; continued to hold detainees at prisons like Guantanamo and Bagram in Afghanistan (in addition to black prison sites that likely still exist); employed navy ships to hold prisoners that can no longer be sent to Guantanamo because there will be public outrage; asserted an authority to target and kill US civilians and bypass due process; and forced detainees into military commissions or “kangaroo courts” that are essentially Kafkaesque proceedings where it is nearly impossible to not be found guilty.
Obama has gone after whistleblowers and stalled efforts to make government more transparent. He has expanded the use of drone warfare and used it in a way that has had a destabilizing impact in Pakistan. He has gone along with President George W. Bush’s plans for the Iraq War and had there not been a cable released by WikiLeaks that upset the Iraqi government because it detailed a massacre of Iraqi civilians carried out by US soldiers, which the US government had refused to investigate, the US might not have said it would withdraw all its soldiers by the end of 2011.
One could go into far more detail, but what I am demonstrating is that people who value peace and civil liberties understand what Greenwald posits in his recent post:
For those who are extremely dissatisfied with the status quo in American political life and are seeking ways to change it, supporting one of the two major-party candidates in the 2012 presidential campaign as the principal form of activism offers no solution. That’s not an endorsement for resignation, apathy, non-voting, voting for a third party, or anything else. It’s just a simple statement of fact: on many issues that progressives themselves have long claimed are of critical, overarching importance (not all, but many), there will be virtually no debate in the election because there are virtually no differences between the two candidates and the two parties on those questions. In the face of that fact, there are two choices: (1) simply accept it (and thus bolster it) on the basis that the only political priority that matters is keeping the Democratic Party and Barack Obama empowered; or (2) searching for ways to change the terms of the debate so that critical views that are now excluded by bipartisan consensus instead end up being heard.
I happen to support efforts to “change the terms of debate.” I think that is what citizens must do if they wish to have any hope for changing the status quo in America. But, unfortunately, far too many progressives are willing to try and work within the confines of an electoral system that is set up to pump out candidates who work for, as the Occupy movement would say, the 1%. Far too many are willing to lower expectations and settle for less when they can have more. Like the Socialist Candidate, who ran for president five times, Eugene Debs, said at the end of his last presidential campaign in 1920, “The people can have anything they want. The trouble is they do not want anything. At least they vote that way on Election Day.”
“2012 Feels So Empty”
Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone has candidly declared, “2012 feels so empty now” because “voters on both sides of the aisle are not just tired of this state of affairs, they are disgusted by it.” If Taibbi is correct, what is one to do to address this “emptiness”? If he is right that there are “few challenges to the state of affairs within the electoral process” and Paul is a “real outlet for these complaints,” what do progressives opposed to those who find him to be a “real outlet” suggest as an alternative so one might not have to use Paul to gain critical issues the attention they deserve?
If progressives agree that we will be left with “one 1%-approved stooge taking on another” (and let’s be honest they might argue Obama is a president of the 99% so this is far from a settled debate among progressives), what can be done so conversation on these issues is not muted throughout 2012?
I happen to favor the possibility of Paul being the GOP nominee. As much as President Obama has engaged in war and continued the assault on civil liberties that accelerated under the Bush Administration, I think if President Obama had to beat Paul to earn re-election the United States would be much better off in the aftermath.
Imagine having to debate Paul on wars, on possible war with Iran, on drone warfare, on the expansion of the surveillance state and the PATRIOT Act, on the war on drugs, on transparency, whistleblowing and WikiLeaks, etc. Then, imagine President Obama having to find a way to neutralize and marginalize Paul’s positions. In the general election, there would inevitably be a wide space opened up for debate on foreign policy and civil liberties that would not be unlike the space for debate that Occupy Wall Street has opened up on economic inequality and injustice in America.
Additionally, Paul’s progressive critics, who are righteous in their opposition to him, would be able to watch President Obama challenge Paul on the very issues that lead them to chastise progressives who say anything that could be construed as supportive of Paul. President Obama could challenge him on reproductive rights, government regulation, marriage equality, health care, taxes and the role of the federal government in providing welfare to citizens.
This may all sound like a fairy tale that will never happen, but the point is not whether it is realistic or not. The point is that if Obama had to run against Paul he would have to answer questions on some very important issues, which he has had a dismal record on in his first term as president.
Paul as a GOP “Spoiler” Candidate
The criticism of “progressive voices” that appear to “support” Paul to various progressives does not just stem from their disgust toward his domestic policies. It actually stems from something even greater: the belief which the media has helped propagate that he is not a “serious,” electable or viable candidate.
Greenwald highlighted this in his post. I want to address another aspect of this belief, one that has less to do with the policies that people allege to be “crazy” or “controversial.” I am interested in the progressives who think he has no intention to try and win and therefore it is foolish for anyone to support him.
Liberal radio host Bob Cesca writes:
For the next several months, Ron Paul will continue to be a spoiler in the Republican primary campaign, lobbing crazy bombs from the fringes of the far right wing of the party without any chance whatsoever of actually winning the nomination, and even less of a shot at winning the White House in November.
But it doesn’t matter because winning isn’t his goal, regardless of the idealistic daydreaming of his most vocal supporters. He has no intention of becoming president, and he never has. His mission, beyond political masturbation, is to continue his sermon about the viability of a completely non-functioning ideology, libertarianism, while paying homage to the L. Ron Hubbard of politics, Ayn Rand.
This view espoused by Cesca carries a scorn for democracy that may be very familiar to those who follow what I will call “fringe politics.” It implies that Paul never had a right to run for president because he could never win and for someone to run in a presidential election they must be “electable” or able to win. Otherwise, they are a “spoiler.”
I don’t know why Cesca is concerned about Paul “spoiling” the election for other GOP candidates or why he feels the need to point this out. If he is worried that progressives voting for Paul at this stage will “spoil” the election, it really should not matter unless he thinks Paul could pose a threat to Obama’s re-election. In any case, the “spoiler” term used by Cesca and anyone else that agrees with his view is also used to malign third party candidates that run for president in the general election. And those who are incensed by the presence of third party candidates on the ballot usually react to supporters of these candidates in the way that progressives have responded to people like Greenwald.
If Greenwald wants to understand why progressives seem to be conjuring fact-free illogical condemnations of his work, he could look at how progressives went after those sympathetic toward Ralph Nader in 2008 (and in previous elections).
When Nader announced he would be running, they said a vote for him was a vote for John McCain. They suggested he would have a “battleground” strategy to help Republicans win. They told those interested in his candidacy that he was responsible for the strengthening of the “Republican war machine” or helped elect Bush in 2000 and he had been proud. And they tried to convince those sympathetic to his campaign that he was an egotist and a spoiler.
In the same way that critics of Greenwald have been ready to attack anything he says on Ron Paul, they were ready for anyone who showed sympathy toward Nader’s presence in the general election.
The long-time consumer advocate said of his campaign that he was putting issues “on the table” that were “off the table” to McCain and Obama: single-payer health care, cutting a bloated military budget, supporting solar energy first, cracking down on corporate crime/welfare, opening the presidential debates, reversing U.S. policy in the Middle East, impeaching Bush-Cheney, putting an end to ballot access obstructionism, repealing the Taft-Hartley anti-union law, and working to end “corporate personhood.” But, this mattered little to progressives.
Most progressives instead fixated on the belief that he cost former Vice President Al Gore the 2000 Election. Bush only beat Gore by 543 votes in Florida. This is what infuriates progressives about Nader to this day. But, they fail to factor in disenfranchised voters, voting systems and procedures that failed (i.e. the butterfly ballot), the US Supreme Court declaring Bush the winner or the Democrats who voted for Bush or did not vote in the election at all. And so the idea that Nader cost Gore the election is dubious and misleading because it was Gore’s election to lose (if you recall he didn’t even win his home state of Tennessee).
Paul’s 2008 Press Conference for Third Party Candidates
Elections could be more open, fair and free and less “empty” of conversation on issues. Candidates like Nader, the Green Party’s Cynthia McKinney, the Libertarian Party’s candidate Bob Barr, and the Constitution Party’s candidate Chuck Baldwin in 2008 tried to reset the debate. In fact, in 2008, Ron Paul held a press conference where he showcased each of these third-party options at the National Press Club. He said, “At a time when 60 percent of the American people are dissatisfied with their presidential choices…this could be the year that a third-party option brings in a big chunk of the vote.”
The four candidates that appeared with Paul at the Press Club signed on to four-point plan: balance the federal budget, bring American troops home, protect civil liberties and investigate the Federal Reserve. When Paul did this, he had held a “Rally for Liberty” in Minneapolis, an alternative Republican convention that drew thousands of people. So for the political establishment, Paul’s endorsement of a third party option confounded them because they saw this as another effort to plant an obstacle in the way of McCain’s campaign.
The effort was designed to widen the debate in much the same way that any sympathetic blog posts from progressives for Ron Paul have been about widening the debate. But, most progressives viewed the press conference as a sideshow and progressive interest puerile because the third-party options could only “spoil” the election for McCain or Obama.
The reaction progressives have toward anti-establishment candidates like Paul or third party politicians like Nader is the result of political bigotry. It stems from unsubstantiated fear that challenging a “major party” candidate like Obama could affect that candidate’s success. Of course, that is the point. In this winner-take-all political system, third party politicians run to inject issues into the debate and force “major party” candidates to adopt them to win.
In the GOP primary, this is the role Paul serves. His most ardent supporters likely hope that in some small way he will remain competitive so that people like Romney or Santorum will have to continue to confront his views and perhaps adopt some of his stances. Will they? That’s not the point. If the GOP candidates are intent on winning, his supporters hope they have to talk about the issues Paul is cares most about.
The Tired Debate About Spoilers and Electable Candidates
In conclusion, here Americans are in the third election cycle since Ralph Nader allegedly “stole” the election. Third parties like the Green Party, candidates like Nader and hundreds of volunteers have worked tirelessly to fight ballot access obstructionism and open the debates so that there could be more voices and more choices in elections. And, despite that some progressives have suggested that there needed to be more infrastructure and reform in this country before they could ever vote for someone other than the lesser of two evils, the harsh truth is that in between elections very little has been done to lay the groundwork so politically engaged Americans would not have the same tired old debates they have had during the past few elections.
They are the same people who in the first year of Obama’s presidency insisted critics give Obama a chance. To do what? I asked. Then, various progressive commentators began to show outrage and display a sense of betrayal in May 2009 (finally). But, as I said then, Obama didn’t betray them. They betrayed themselves.
They became livid and upset when the antiwar movement and those voting third party challenged him during his campaign. They made excuses like: he’s just saying it to get elected, if he said what he really should say he would be assassinated, he’s not saying it but he’s thinking it and he will do it when he wins, and (the best one of them all) we can’t let another Republican win so let’s get him elected and we’ll pressure him come January.
Into January, the “make Obama do it” wing of the Democratic Party base was missing in action (or, rather, they were in a veal pen doing what Rahm Emanuel wanted them to do on health reform).
They opposed and marginalized an effort to run a primary challenger against Obama to ensure there would be debate on key issues.
Which is Why the Occupy Movement is So Critical to This Country
Is it any wonder why the Occupy movement is so refreshing? It has forced progressives to confront their role in a liberal class that has betrayed Americans in the past decades.
This is what journalist and ardent supporter of Occupy Wall Street, Chris Hedges, wrote in April 2008:
The failure of the left is the failure of well-meaning people who kept compromising and compromising in the name of effectiveness and a few scraps of influence until they had neither. The condemnations progressives utter — about the abuse of working men and women, the rapacious cannibalization of the country by an unchecked arms industry, our disastrous foreign wars, and the collapse of basic services from education to welfare — are not backed by action. The left has been transformed into anguished apologists for corporate greed. They have become hypocrites…
…Hope, St. Augustine wrote, has two beautiful daughters. They are anger and courage. Anger at the way things are and the courage to see they do not remain the way they are. We stand at the verge of a massive economic dislocation, one forcing millions of families from their homes and into severe financial distress, one that threatens to rend the fabric of our society. If we do not become angry, if we do not muster within us the courage to challenge the corporate state that is destroying our nation, we will have squandered our credibility and integrity at the moment we need it most.
That force that can challenge the corporate state has been waking up a sleeping giant for months now. The Occupy movement has been inspiring Americans to show courage and really work toward a more equitable society that will be much better than the one that exists today. But, progressives are struggling with a voice inside them that keeps say they must caution the Occupy movement for its urge to not commit to being a counterweight to the Tea Party in the 2012 Election and simply show up wherever there is political action to try and insert their message of the 99%.
The Occupy movement has expanded the possibilities for change. They have not played by the rules. They are not afraid to make political enemies in Congress or the Obama Administration because they know those in the halls of power already want to keep a measured distance from the movement. They understand the country does not just need to focus on addressing economic agenda items but also on democratizing the system of government rigged to favor corporations and the 1%. They have not been NGO-ized (as journalist Naomi Klein might say).
A call for the Occupy movement to become part of the 2012 Election, like volunteer for Democrats and the Obama 2012 re-election campaign, undermines the true potential of Occupy. It ensures that come the 2016 Election the cycle repeats: anti-establishment candidates run in the two “major parties.” They are labeled “unelectable” or “controversial.” Those who consider voting for him or her are chastised for being purists. A “1% Stooge” wins the nomination in the two “major parties.” An attempt to run a third party option happens. Those who insist on supporting a third party candidate to ensure debate on vital and important issues are treated like sanctimonious people who support a pariah.
There might be a future where sharp commentators like Greenwald can attempt to have an intellectual debate about an exceedingly complex presidential candidate like Ron Paul and not have to anticipate being hit with a volley of contempt and scorn from progressives for truly addressing Paul’s meaningful contribution to what would otherwise be a far more vacuous presidential election. But that future will only come when progressives stop letting the narrow confines of US electoral politics control their attitudes and thoughts on candidates and social movements.
Update
FDL’s Jon Walker has a concise post on the Ron Paul dilemma for liberals. It includes diagrams comparing Obama and Romney and Obama and Paul. Walker’s point:
To decide if Obama is better than Paul you must first face the reality that Obama is terrible on some issues and then weigh that against the issues he is good on, or at least better than, Paul. It forces liberals to do the hard work, prioritize what they claim to believe in. In this situation, to defend Obama, you most defend many of his horrific positions as an acceptable sacrifice for a better all-around package.





176 Comments

Bravo, Kevin. Thank you.
The phrase “terms of debate” opens one huge can of worms squirming around.
And goes to one of the issues that Occupy Caucus highlighted and no doubt Occupy Primary will as well. There really are no terms to the debate. There is framing and talking points and messaging, but no engagement either of the public or of the competing candidates. There is no agreement on facts, which causes the messaging to become surreal (cf. Bachmann, Michele).
Ron Paul is from Pittsburgh, went to Gettysburg College and Duke Med, enlisted as a flight surgeon in 1963 to serve out his draft obligation (don’t know but he might have been AFROTC). From 1961-1963 he was a resident at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit at a time when Southeastern Michigan was one of the epicenters of the John Birch Society. While there, he discovered the Austrian School (Hayek and von Mises) and Ayn Rand. In 1965 he moved from active duty to the Texas Air National Guard for his three-year active reserve requirement. In 1968, he permanently relocated in the Houston area and began his gynecology practice. The Congressman from that district at the time was George H. W. Bush. From the moment Ron Paul reached Texas, he seemed to “go native”. It took until 1976 for Paul to win a seat in Congress. He was out of office twice and came back, the last time in 1997. The infamous newsletters were content in his investment and political newsletter publishing business between 1985 and 2001. The question of his involvement in the newsletters hinges on how much time he was devoting to his gynecological practice. After his 1988 run for President on the Liberatarian Party ticket, running against George H. W. Bush and Michael Dukakis, he returned to his medical practice and ran a coin dealership. During this period, Lew Rockwell edited the newsletter and seven or eight freelancers wrote the content. Its use in the 2012 campaign is a classic example of oppo research messaging.
It is obvious from the number of times he was primaried that he was not welcomed by the Texas Republican establishment, especially after he bolted for the Libertarian Party run against that establishment’s Presidential candidate.
Were he to be elected and not have any substantial coattails, he would have a Congressional Republican establishment out to undercut him and a Congressional Democratic establishment that would obstruct much of his agenda.
Which brings up a crucial issue about the whole debate over Ron Paul as an alternative. With Congress as divided as it is right now, there need to be alternative candidates for Congress more than there needs to be an alternative for President. And governors and state legislatures and county commissions/councils and city councils. Not to mention school boards and other special purpose district boards.
The failure here is in thinking that American politics starts and ends with the race for President.
The Occupy movement is clear that grassroots democracy starts with the local. Any action relative to Congressional or Presidential candidates is on the order of asking them “Can you hear me now?” Of getting through the bubble of messaged communications. Ron Paul, for all his other qualities, still maintains that bubble in the face of being mic-checked. Still tries to control his message. Still does not engage on an equal basis with those who might disagree with his positions. And still is not open to facts that might contradict his world view.
It’s different that a Republican seeks to downsize the military in order to balance the budget. And wants to avoid foreign entanglements. But exactly what does that translate into as a foreign policy and a national security policy. Does the national security force become something like that of Switzerland? Or Costa Rica? It’s smoking out the details behind all those talking points that citizens must do — and did not do an adequate job of in vetting the 2008 candidates. Politics by catchphrase is what has undone American politics. “Morning in America” “Read my lips, no new taxes”, “Hope”, “Bridge to the Twenty-First Century”….and the policy papers just use a little more specific catch phrases such as “public option”. No one asks “What exactly does that mean?”
What civil liberties is Ron Paul for if he cannot see blatant discrimination or wants to criminalize abortion? Speech? Assembly? Then why so silent about the treatment of the Occupy movement?
Regardless of the persons, the election of 2012 is unredeemably vacuous just because 30 years of relentless managed communications have stripped the meaning out of the process. Breaking through that managed communications is what the Occupy movement has done.
The issue is how many people will be encouraged to make informed choices about the election, given the massive distraction of the campaign coverage and candidate media campaigns.
*stands on chair clapping*
I’d like to amplify on this but first please note:
“VIDEO: Scary Crackdown on NDAA Occupy Wall Street Protest” (BusinessInsider.Com, David Seaman, Jan. 4, 2012, 4:30 PM)
This has already been happening with people of color, immigrants and the unhoused except they have also been subject to on-the-spot executions by the police (e.g. Rodney King is a famous example many folks are lead to believe is an outlier).
I posit that if one doesn’t have human and civil rights in their own backyard– their neighborhood, town or city– then they simply don’t have them at all. This is why wherever Occupiers are in NYC, they resist the police guiding and controlling their movements, kettling them, detaining them, snatching them and attempting to black out where they are detained to prolong their incarceration and who-knows-what-else treatment. This is why Occupiers immediately resist other Occupiers from being removed by police and pursue removing Occupiers from incarceration if it happens and until they are freed.
Further, we’ve already seen how local governments (formed as corporations) work with other corporate entities to engage in paramilitary harassment of the population, how they coordinate with corporate media to project a lie about it and are burning immense public resource$ to do it about which they also lie. For example, the City of New York, the City of Oakland, CA and the City of Portland, OR have been caught red-handed attempting clever cost-shifting “accounting” slights of hand to cover that they aren’t doing the job they were elected to do including the various slippery self-justifications for their abuse of power.
I seems to me that Occupies need to be very careful to be doggedly oriented toward local, concrete and as locally-sourced as possible solutions with latitude to experiment with what does and doesn’t work to restore themselves to a high Popsicle Index and control over their local government. If they aren’t, they risk dilution, distraction, and co-option/derailment. It also seems like a good idea for Occupy-ae to be in contact with each other, be in solidarity and share what does and doesn’t work. Eliminating the corporate entity– sooner or later the creature of banks– from holding any sway in their lives, neighborhood, town and city seems like a key priority to return the basics of life and money flows to local collective control and restore commons.
Well put.
But it seems that the Occupy movement is capable of multitasking by sending enough envoys to aid in actions like Occupy Caucus, Occupy Primary, Occupy the Capitol, and Occupy Congress, without reducing their local action.
And the Walkupy action, which soon will not be limited to the New York to Atlanta corridor will expand the geographical range of local action.
Great piece, Kevin.
Thank you
I am thrilled with that!
Holy crap, Batman,
This guy can write.
Superb analysis. This draws together all the essential writings of Greenwald, Taibbi,and Scheer, places it in historical perspective, and invites the reader to think deeply.
Excellent post, Kevin.
Really? What if they participated as anti-99%-incumbent trouble-maker-activists? viz., they vote against any incumbent whose record is mostly down with the 99%, whether D or R. This is of less value, absent embedding within a longer-term strategy, than is ideal, but would still show a defiance of they system, as currently practiced. And how much effort is it for people to register (if need be), and vote for anybody-but-incumbent-X?
It’s not just the US government that is systemically dysfunctional, but the US electorate is also systemically dysfunctional, and not properly organized to resist the Veal Pens of the left, right and center. The public did not, by and large, overtly (with their bodies, their presence) support OWS, or Tea Parties. Nor are they intervening in the electoral process in a dynamic, patient and strategic way.
FDL’s own Rayne had an “Angry Left” series, about the way forward for progressives, but who has embraced the sort of participation and organizing that she called for?
Matt Taibbi recognized the widespread disgust of the electorate, due to the lack of real choices, but (AFAIK) he offers no strategy for getting out of this mess.
Here, let me fix that for you:
Frankly, the reluctance, by OWS, to interfere in the electoral process (via voting, not just protesting) is a strong sign that they are only a piece of the puzzle. An important piece, we hope, but also a limited piece. If you had a life-threatening disease, and your doctor told you to take a broad-spectrum anti-biotic, if you opt for only a single anti-biotic, who is at fault if you sicken, and die?
As contemptible as the D and R parties are, and the sold out hacks who support them (veal pen, partisan talking heads, etc.), the greatest fault lies with us. That’s because, while we as individuals have nowhere near the power of a President Obama or Speaker of the House Boehner, collectively we have much more power. To misquote Shakepeare:
OWS recognizes systemic corruption and the lack of choices. Good for them, but then again, an intelligent 12 year old could also have figured out that the dice are loaded. If OWS can’t go beyond that minor insight, clearly we need more than OWS.
Occupy as a movement is evolving. No one can be certain of the role they will play in the election. They may urge the electorate to go vote against incumbents. They may not. They may start discussing third party campaigns or hosting their own political debates that political candidates are invited to attend. But, I don’t think the recognition of systemic corruption is static as you suggest. It doesn’t stop with this understanding and fail to produce meaningful action.
Ron Paul is good on wars.
He’s abysmal on everything else.
Why are so many words wasted on him
Outstanding post, thank you!
If you want a way out of the 1%er mess, read Zinn.
Short version: a lot of work for very little payoff.
Thanks for this, Kevin. If current events don’t force it before that, I fully expect Occupy to have a come-to-Jesus moment by summer that will either unite us or divide us. Will the liberals and progressives (whatever those labels mean now) who are participating in Occupy be able to resist the Dems’ LOTE siren song? The conditioning to vote no matter what, especially among us middle-aged and older folks, is powerful strong. It took the Obama presidency to snap me out of my delusions. That was my bad, anyway. I knew better in 2000 and in 2004. They will steal the votes if they have to. With Obama they didn’t have to; it was win-win for the oligarchy. As it was in the beginning and forever shall be, unless we stop this.
So . . . I am hoping that Occupy chooses to continue to disrupt and disavow the existing system. I’m not sure exactly what that will look like in terms of the election of 2012, but it dang sure won’t be holding our noses and voting for Obama.
I personally don’t appreciate the disingenuousness of “What do progressives suggest as an alternative?”
Uh Rocky Anderson or Jill Stein spring to mind.
I also don’t particularly care for the idea that Ron Paul is change. He’s running as an establishment Republican. He’s not even running as an independant thinker. He’s running as an anti corporate regulation pro individual regulation Republican. That’s not unique. It’s the same friggin’ carp the right wing has been trying to ram down American citizens throats for years.
As for his policy positions being the last bastion of hope for progressives, screw the guys who are saying that. Many of these guys are the same guys who in 2008 thought it was hysterical to mock Kuchinich for his Department of Peace. So now all of a sudden it’s important that we discuss alternatives for being a war machine? Forgive me if I call BS. As it stands the guys foreign war positions and his “civil liberties” positions aren’t even really progressives. Sure, we stop bombing the brown people. However, under a Paul administration that doesn’t mean that wars will necessarily end. Businesses like Bechtel will still be free to exploit places like South America and engage in “water wars.” Additionally his policies domestically aren’t much in terms of civil liberties. Sure I won’t be indefinitely detained. However, as a female I do have second class citizenship. I no longer get to control my reproductive choices and I no longer get protection from sexual harassment in my workplace. If I happen to be an African American female then my fate is even worse. People not only can harass but can also openly discriminate. It gets worse if you happen to be more vulnerable and have some sort of disability because a Ron Paul presidency would deny you to access to what completely abled folks have access to. So in short, if you aren’t a heterosexual white male then your “civil liberties” aren’t really the same as the civil liberties of the rest of the people being implored to support Ron Paul so that his by a feebly small small margin policy of not bombing the crap of the people can remain part of the debate.
Sorry gentlemen, the sooner Ron Paul goes away the better in my opinion.
He’s not even really good on wars. Basically his position is that we place our hand over our eyes and ears in regards to the rest of the world.
It’s an overly simplistic position. Disengagement does not necessarily mean a better outcome.
Thank you for this! One thing very important about Occupy, is that there are young people who see few opportunities ahead of them under the current system that are now involved, engaged, and helping each other.
Thanks for a great post on something that has been troubling me. It seems that as progressives in the Obama era have, one by one, accepted conservative views, they have also resorted to conservative habits of mind in framing their arguments. What’s the difference between, “So, you’d want to abolish the Civil Rights Act?” and, “So, you’d rather Saddam was still in power?”
There is none. Both are designed to shut down thought, rather than ebcourage it.
As liberals, we ought to be open to having our beliefs, as well as our ephemeral political interests, challenged. That’s what makes us liberals; we don’t (or oughtn’t, at least) have closed minds. Yet that’s what I see.
Personally, I couldn’t imagine not voting for Obama, but only because of the Federal courts. Sadly, there isn’t much else.
I take your point, but that’s a tradeoff I’d be willing to live with at the moment. U.S. is in about 15 wars, last I counted.
Paul is nuts on most issues but I wish there was a way that Obama would have to confront him and argue the points about wars, etc. Obama might be caught, for once, without a pretty speech. Thank you, Kevin, for a great post.
Cesca, in his article about all this, which is on Huffington Post, just came out and said that he isn’t very concerned about drone strikes and indefinite detention.
That’s what I’ve found in talking to these Obama progrssives. A lot of Obama loyalists really couldn’t care less about the horrors he’s doing abroad.
What most people who say they want more choices fail to realize is that the votes MUST come first. Politicians in the 2 “major” parties will never voluntary loosen the rules in a way that will threaten their hold on power. I always tell people to vote for the candidate with whom they MOST agree, and the one who has most firmly stood by those beliefs. The more votes go to candidates from other parties, the more the mainstream politicians will be threatened with losing power and willing to make policy corrections. At this point in time – to vote for either of the two parties is to be a part of the problem. There are almost always other names on the ballot – especially for president – vote for one of them. Chances are, you won’t have to hold your nose to do so.
i have been a progressive my whole life and am supporting Paul,,,he has been labled a crack pot but the fact is, he is correct on many of the early progressive issues of the day…
foreign entanglements, civil liberties, drugs, states rights,,etc..
the fact is, obama and willaed are no different except for skin color
Paul does not have to be the Republican candidate for that debate to happen, if he runs as a third party candidate and that candidate is included in the debates. It happened with George Wallace in 1968 and Ross Perot in 1992.
The problem for Paul is that he will have to compete against Gary Johnson to get the Libertarian nod.
Paul sucks on civil liberties. All he cares about is that the govt stay out of your lives (except for women of course, but given your screen name, I’m guessing you are not of that gender). Corps can do anything they want to you under Paul. You’d have NO rights against corps whatsoever under Paul And since there’s not much distinction betw govt & corps in the U.S. anymore, what’s the diff.
Would that be an oxymoron?
Well put, Kevin. Thank you!
Ron Paul as the Republican candidate for president would force Obama to defend his record in debates. Any of the other candidates would not even offer a contrast to Obama.
Naysayers – Support Ron Paul if you want change from either party.
Here’s the problem I see if Obama were forced to “debate” Ron Paul on the war and civil liberty issues.
Obama is so clever, and so good at speaking words without saying a dogdamned thing, that he would turn the debate into one over abortion and civil rights, and with the help of a media that also wants that shift, likely succeed. Thus, Obama will “win” the debate emphatically, as Paul will be shown, again with the willing help of the media, as someone from the middle ages (which he is in ways), and the issues we wanted discussed will never get more than a passing quote or two.
The result of this would be a strengthening of the status quo, as folks will be so disgusted with Paul they’ll flock to Obama, who will then have a mandate to continue to assassinate American citizens, detain them forever, and torture them when necessary. He, and everyone else, will see the results as the American public approving of ending habeas corpus and assassinations with no due process.
So, in summary, not only would Paul lose the debating points in a route, the issues he should win on won’t ever be discussed at length because Paul will spend the entire time defending himself from the attacks on the other issues. And the media will pull out all stops to ensure that’s exactly what will happen.
And what makes anyone think that Paul would do anything he says. Strikes me there were no lessons learned from O’s behavior vs. his rhetoric.
I think you’re smarter than I am and are likely correct. My glass was half full for a moment there.
By the way, great post Kevin.
Rather than focus on individual candidates of the two corrupt parties, Occupy can better exert its muscle focusing on issues and staying neutral to personalities. It can also be effective weighing in on some of the statewide ballot initiatives, medical marijuana for one.
“The Ron Paul Enigma” is not that complicated. An arch-conservative who uses populist talk to get elected. The extent of Ron Paul’s usefulness of bringing up issues in a debate that might not have been discussed is no more useful than what Dennis Kucinich did in the Democrat primaries in years past. The American public gets duped by the same b.s every election cycle. Progressives who think Paul is their savior are no better than Obamabots. Professional grifters are all the same.
I refuse to vote for an establishment candidate, even Ron Paul. He will continue the status quo and has an avid ideological Randian divide between himself and other humans.
I’ve learned many lessons over the past 20 years and wasting my vote on a candidate paraded for public consumption is one of the most important.
OWS is trying to learn and spread Direct Democracy. Until the bulk of America gets behind a real life Farmer John or Teacher Patricia and pushes them with all their might, there is no true election.
I agree with you that Paul would “lose” in a match-up against a more seasoned liar like Obama, but the reason would not be simply due to media bias. It would be primarily due to Paul’s not having credible positions on issues like war and civil liberties.
BTW, I had no idea that pollen collecters had an aversion to the feverfew. So sorry for the suggestion.
Also, I know of nothing that Paul has ever done in his many years of congress that is of direct benefit to the country and it’s citizens.
Left you 3 links at the bottom of the earlier thread, starting here.
I think my larger point is that everyone keeps talking things up as if his foreign policy position is progressive. It isn’t necessarily. Ron Paul supports unilateralism. Ironically, it’s that very policy that put us in Iraq. Our decision to disregard the global community on weapons inspection is exactly how we ended up there.
Additionally, Ron Paul repeatedly insists that it is a CONGRESSIONAL RIGHT to declare war. So his hands could be tied if Congress were to decide that Iran was a threat.
Additionally Ron Paul appears to be rather schizophrenic in terms of the international community. He’ll rail against entities like the UN and then cite the IAEA as an authority and talk about non proliferation treaties. He’s all over the board.
I think people oversimplify Paul. Additionally, I think they tend to do exactly what they did with Obama and see exactly what they want to see.
So you saw the comments. Good. Nor did I.
I caught it. Thanks, and again very sorry. I am trying to get back to the old fireside part of medicine. I had no idea that bees were so affected by a natural herb.
U.S. is already at war against Iran, and it’s no threat.
Hear, hear! I agree wholeheartedly. If Paul gets the Republican nomination I am considering voting for him. If he doesn’t I will likely vote for Stein or for Anderson if he runs.
Going to my broader point about whatever makes anyone think Paul will do what (they think) he says. Pols lie. People are inconsistent.
As I said earlier on, why are so many words wasted with him, esp since he has no chance of getting elected.
I wouldn’t vote for Paul if I were waterboarded 183 times. I was just pointing out that’s the only position he mouths the right words. What makes you think he would actually stop any of the 15 wars.
In retrospect, you’re probably right. Obama is a silver-tongued devil and Ron Paul is the opposite – thank goodness the message is powerful enough to carry him this far.
“The conditioning to vote no matter what, especially among us middle-aged and older folks, is powerful strong. It took the Obama presidency to snap me out of my delusions.”
The unfortunate problem with that reasoning is, by not voting, or voting for a 3rd party that has zero chance of winning, you help assure that the individual you like the least will be elected. Note that I said “unfortunate” because I agree with the problem, but realistically, your proposed solution, which is to try to take your toys and go home, simply doesn’t work and never has worked. Cite one example where removing oneself from the system has brought about the change that is wanted and needed. If the young would actually vote, which only a small percentage actually bother to do, they really could make a difference, but tuning in, turning on and dropping out leads to failure.
“why are so many words wasted with him, esp since he has no chance of getting elected.”
In particular when he admits he has not chance of winning.
Not at war, and actually today our military rescued an Iranian ship.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/06/world/meast/iran-us-navy-rescue/index.html?eref=rss_mostpopular
I think that one of the things we should remember about our foreign policy is that it is not what normal people would think of as a foreign policy. If we did not support the likes of Tyrant rulers, then our large corporations like GE and the oil industry would not be allowed to run over the populace and extract their resources.
Yeah, there is that possibility too.
I can’t know for sure whether he’s sincere in what he’s saying or not, but I will say he does sound sincere to me on his views of “big brother” government. He seems to be a genuine conspiracy theory believer, and seems to really fear the government having too much power regarding detaining people without trials, assassinating them with no due process, etc.
I share that fear, although mine is mixed in with outright RAGE because there is absolutely no way possible that kind of crap is Constitutional, or American. I loathe those that passed that NDAA bill (every single Congressman and Senator that voted for that should not get a single vote when running for re-election, as should Obama for signing it), and have an almost equal loathing for those that want to apologize for it and support it by enabling it come next November.
It was bad enough apologizing for a POS health care bill. This is down to basic human rights here, and there is simply no compromising on habeas corpus. Period. NO American politician that supports ending habeas corpus should get any support from any voting American. Yet they will, likely from millions and millions of Americans.
I’ve never been so disgusted in my country as I am right now. November 2004 was a pretty low point, but this blows that away. When you no longer have any habeas corpus rights, and no due process whatsoever when it comes to possibly being killed, you have turned the America I knew upside down.
This. Shit. Has. To. End.
Now.
Paul is not about rhetoric. He has a consistent 30 year record. Study his speeches. Look at what he was saying as others were beating drums to send our soldiers to Iraq. No man can change the world, and he respects the fact that there are three branches of government, but he would offer some resistance to the War Party and Wall Street.
Sanctions, like embargoes, are acts of war. Not to mention all the covert activity.
His words have never been tested from a position of power.
Like that gadfly Bernie Sanders who can say & vote however he wants bc he is so irrelevant.
I just watched him speak to an audience at University of New Hampshire and say he became an obstetrician because he did not want to go off to war and kill people. He knew he would be drafted and did not think he could do such a thing. He also said, in talking about foreign policy, that the goal should be peace and not occupation.
We’re supposed to not be sympathetic toward Paul’s views on war because he will respect the separation of powers which is ordained by our Constitution?
Fair to say, but what’s the point? He can cite reports from agencies he thinks the country should not have to work with in cooperation. And you and I can oppose his dislike for America being part of these global organizations or institutions. The points he makes with IAEA findings are still valid and important when talking about the possibility of overreaction by going to war with Iran.
I have not seen many progressives over-simplifying at all. What I have seen is people like Greenwald, Stoller, Scheer and myself lauding him for his positions on war and civil liberties. We haven’t condoned his domestic policies. I listened to him talk about economics and the role of federal government. I am pretty sure I am opposed to just about everything he said, even though it was completely rational and logical. I think his ideas for economic policy would have a bad impact on Americans (though I do think he could do something about the issue of bureaucratic stratification in government).
Here is the list. Join me in making sure they do not get back into office.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/268602/20111216/ndaa-did-congress-member-vote.htm
Also, Ron Paul was/is running for President. He did not vote because of that. Had he not been running for office, he would have voted just like the rest of them.
When did he say he has no chance of winning?
So true. He sucks badly.
Ugh, sorry for ranting there.
I’m so disgusted with both the politicians that voted for that and the voters that will vote for those politicians that I get out of control fast.
Sorry.
See #57 above. I gotchyerback.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/01/does-ron-paul-see-himself-in-the-oval-office-not-really/
Terry Moran
By Terry Moran
@TerryMoran
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Jan 2, 2012 9:00pm
Does Ron Paul See Himself in the Oval Office? ‘Not Really’
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ap ron paul 120102 wblog Does Ron Paul See Himself in the Oval Office? Not Really
An amazing admission tonight from Ron Paul.
In an exclusive interview, I asked him: “When you lay your head on your pillow at night, do you see yourself in the Oval Office?”
“Not really,” he said.
Hey, I think being an oxymoron is a good thing, so I feel a little bit insulted that you might think the term applies to “Obama progressives.” ::smile::
All I know is they swear up and down they are true progressives and then they go on and on about how great O is and how stupid we are for not supporting him and how it’s all our fault that the Republicans took over and blah blah blah.
I have a hard time calling someone a progressive who thinks drone strikes against children are good or who brag on how great O is for killing people like Bin Laden or Kaddafi. (Yeah, I’m talking about you, Bill Mahr.) But maybe they’ve co-opted the term and it’s time to jettison it as meaningless verbage. I don’t know.
I tend now to refer to myself as a Leftist.
Audit the Fed
That doesn’t mean he couldn’t win. That just means right now he doesn’t know what it would be like to be president. He’s still campaigning.
You play the game to win don’t you? He could have answered that in so many different ways. To you, it may seem like he is just campaigning but his choice of words tells me what he is thinking.
Okay, I’ll give him that one item. I’ll have to search the proposed legislation for it though.
Whoever becomes president will be ensnared in the same system. No? Wishing, hoping and praying and thinking that a Great Man can be elected to save us is…? Delusional? (Ye gods, I voted for Obama last time. Never again.) Not sure, but my sentiments shade toward the negative, because the electoral system is too corrupted as it stands, and weighted toward the moneyed interests and not the majority of people.
Okay, here is the legislation at a glance with honorable mention of Jane and FireDogLake. It was watered down and joined with other legislation in the Wall Street Reform Package and placed into the hands of Timmeh the Taxless to decide which banks are a systemic risk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Transparency_Act
Pretty much agree. Why I advocate Occupy not getting too ensnared in electoral politics in 2012.
I’m with you. If the label progressive now applies to those who condone drone strikes on civilians, it’s time to jettison the handle because it’s become meaningless.
I personally prefer the label undefined. It’s good to keep the opposition guessing.
I have been trying to think of how Progressives have condoned drone strikes. Can anyone give me an example? Are those people real Progressives or is it another propaganda ball whizzing by?
Agreed. I am also of the strong persuasion that Occupy should not put much focus on having a presence at the Charlotte and Tampa conventions. There is little to gain by being there, but there is a substantial downside in that the MSM will smear the movement if anything gets out of hand.
Because of what I’ve seen and heard in my area, I do not suggest that OWS come here for the convention. Actually, I don’t suggest that anyone that is beyond all the garbage come. Oakland PD has nothing on what is being prepped for this convention. I highly suggest they stay away and focus on something that will have more impact.
The convention is a another show.
Now that I will have to push back. I think you want to follow the candidates around to these primaries and expose the system daily. I think you want to show how the emptiness of electoral politics and perhaps promote discussion on reform or alternatives to this broken and rigged system. If they aren’t going to go where the media goes, the media could easily start to disappear the movement. I mean, for right now, the media actually expects to cover Occupy and occupiers should be there.
Read a bio of the timeline of Ron Paul’s education and his military service under what was then considered a peacetime draft. He was an OB-GYN once he finished his residency in 1963, at which point he did his two-year active duty as a flight surgeon in the USAF and his three-year active reserves with the Texas Air National Guard in Houston. Is he admitting that he chose the TANG because he was dodging the escalation that was going on in Vietnam in 1965? If he is, that should endear him to the Republican primary voters, shouldn’t it?
Point of fact about the way he structured the statement. He is lying about his past.
It’s not complicated.
Indiscriminate drone strikes are being conducted under the Obama administration (see the video to grasp the magnitude)
So-called progressives who hero-worship Obama are either ignoring the drone attacks or are pretending they are not occurring.
Ergo, the faux progressives condone the ongoing drone strikes as they promote the candidacy of the perpetrator.
Kevin, those are the magic words. What better way to demonstrate contempt for a broken system than by shunning it when participation is expected?
The silence of Occupy shunning both the Democratic and Republican national conventions would be deafening.
That is pretty much the point of looking beyond electoral politics in 2012.
Okay. I call myself a Progressive. I do not condone any drone whether for surveilance or to kill.
I think it is a cheap and unethical way to remove boots and intell on the ground and ensure that what could go wrong DOES!
Fake progressives is the key word. Thank you.
Kevin,
I have to tell you that OWS will be walking into a very dangerous place at the convention. I had even hoped to help a group of FireDogs come here for the event, but quickly changed my mind. I’m talking rooftop snipers and such. Remember, the Carolinas are hard red states until recent years.
Ding. Ding. Ding.
But when has the US military not thought that overkill was better than underkill?
Never. That is what they are trained to do, kill in the name of our Flag, Liberty, Democracy, and all that jazz.
Oh, by the way, I’ve seen several more Youtube videos and read more articles where military personnel are waking up and coming to full understanding. In fact, they understand better than most American citizens.
Kevin, I;m quite disappointed in your position on this issue of Ron Paul and any portended value he adds to any dialogue.
1) I don’t give a shit what the GOP folks do, or say, and having Ron Paul in the mix ain’t gonna change them or their followers one iota. So that shoots down THAT drea that he influences the GOP political spectrum in any fashion that’s desirable for progressives.
2) He’s misoynist, racist, homophobic, and he’s NOT for the 99%, it’s proven. When he says he wants to slash government he wants to slash programs that benefit the poor, the sick, blacks, latinos, women;s health and the LGBT community including disease control and prevention.
I sure as shit ain’t gonna give him ANY cred cuz he’s a pretender (however dedicated he claims to be) antiwar positioner, He’s a politician, he’s 1%, he’s a horrid human aside from his antiwar jive.
I will not throw out the baby or my morals for the cheap bathwater he peddles to the public.
Again, I’m greatly disappointed in your position on this, and for you and FDL for posting about any manner of support for Paul, regardless HOW you couch it or frame it.
I may have to reconsider my membership and support of FDL because of this.
N that’s saying a lot. A whole lot, coming from me . . .
“Ye gods, I voted for Obama last time.”
Well, if you hadn’t we would be talking about President Bomb Bomb Iran and Vice President Snow Queen.
So, you won’t vote or will toss your vote even if the choice is Obama/Biden or Sanitorium/Newticles???
Are you serious?
Your definition of civil liberties and mine must be very different.
Again, if you aren’t male,white, heterosexual and able bodied under a Paul administration you’d be confined to second class citizenship.
It takes a special person to argue that it isn’t a repudiation of my civil liberties to insist that if in the workplace some guys decide to discuss the virtues of my boobs that my only recourse is to find another job.
Civility is by its definition, the rights of citizens. Under a Paul administration more than half of this country would lose rights and protections. How is that by definion progressive? It isn’t. It’s regressive.
You big meanie.
I’m going to say it again the Paul supporters see what they want to see.
They did the same thing with Obama.
He was going to end the war too.
They don’t need our military. Private contractors work just as well. They’ve already managed to acquire the billions needed to procure them.
That’s the best response to Ron Paul, our present political reality and the general situation of we the people I’ve ever read.
I’m fully against Paul, have stated so, and even suggest WHY I feel that way.
YOUR comment, hammers it all home with details and depth I don’t provide cuz I know all this but lazy to chase after citations and such.
I mean, if a progressive does NOT know the dirt of Ron Paul and his libertarian ilk, and the ilk of the racist, misogynist, homophoic GOP and Dem Party, then one can in NO manner claim to be a progressive.
You have drawn the line at where progressivism begins, and where the rest of the msm catatonic induced faux reality the 1% spin ends.
Bless ya Tarheel . . . . I can’t say enough good things about your comment.
This is where FDL has to get off the pot or poop . . . . there is NO margin for compromise with the likes of Paul, regardless of any bleating veal pen game being played . . . yer either progressive, or yer not.
The 99% do not need to compromise, they need to demand and take what is rightfully proper by means of the Constitution and Bill Of Rights.
Not to mention any moral commitments to the pale and downtrodden of the masses, of which any sane and just society MUST hold dear to its existence, or fade away like all empires do.
You rock, hoss.
Thanks.
Uh, who ya clappin for, Kevins diary or Tarheel?
Time to choose sides . . .
FDL should relaunch itself as a Ron Paul site. Which is pretty much what it is these days. I mean this is so idiotic thats its bewildering. It just shows though that liberals are suffering from abused wife syndrome. Yes he beats me to an inch of my life but he tells me he loves me so i have to stay with him. Ya im sure acting this way is really going to change anything. Beyond idiotic! Maybe try supporting an actual progressive for once. And by that i dont mean that liar and hypocrite kucinich. My god!
Except for abortion and perhaps gay marriage, I don’t know what rights or civil liberties Ron Paul physically threatens. Your point about me being a heterosexual white male is fine. If that’s all you have to add to the discussion at the end of the day, that is fine. But, I am not asking females, people of color or GLBT people who think they would be persecuted under a Paul Administration to support him. I tend to think these groups would be just as in trouble under any GOP administration. And, I also don’t see Obama doing too much to defend against attacks from the Christian Right or bigoted/social conservatives (ex. Plan B) though he did do what people wanted and had DADT repealed.
I maintain that one can be sympathetic to Paul’s contribution to the national debate on issues of foreign policy, the war on terror and civil liberties (excluding marriage equality and reproductive rights) and be wholly opposed to his positions on the majority of all other issues. I think having Paul there means we don’t have to concede that there will be—to use Matt Taibbi’s terminology—two 1% stooges where key issues of war and civil liberties are settled and so we have to settle for a political culture that has no debate on these issues until the election is over.
Fuckin Bravo!
Yeh, it pretty much exposes them all as the shills for a white, male and generally 1% oligarchy existence of which they profit from mightily while posing as progressives.
For the record, at no point in this post did I ask anyone to “compromise” with Ron Paul. Maybe FDL has asked for compromise with Paul before. I’m not. I was very clear in what I was arguing.
As to the suggestion that this site should relaunch as a Ron Paul site, thirdpartyplease, that is quite the irrational reaction to a genuine attempt to promote debate and discussion on some serious issues.
This could have been a post about supporting Ron Paul. It could have been about the importance of progressives voting for Paul in 2012. It isn’t and you are being disingenuous if you suggest or imply anywhere in this comments section that this post did.
Posing?
Im sorry ut what will that do? Seriously what? Ive been seeing liberals doing this crap for years thinking that it will do anything. Hell i supported Dean because of this. Who turned out to be a complete fraud. So supported a right wing liar because he has a nice personality is somehow supposed to make change happen. Do you think the dems or epubs give a crap? Do you think the oligarchy gives a crap. By the way this is the problem with OWS. They are too small to have any real effect. Sure people are talking about them. But other then that it wont do anything. You want change have 100000 times the amount of people involved. But support horrible candidates and people and making things up about why they really are ok just ot make yourself feel better about isnt going to do anything.
And its just getting tiresome to see these posts on this site.
That gal had it goin on, in all ways. I miss her voice and perspectives dearly. I disagreed with some of her musings, but aside from that, she was the BEST I’ve read aside from Dayen and Walker and some present staff . . . and Mz. Hamsher when she gets wound up on an issue.
Rayne was progressive, from heart to head and soul, for all of we the people, bless her I hope she’s doing well.
Not sure about your perspective regarding OWS, I remain happy they exist, especially in winter . . . they also serve to highlight what this horrid oligarchy and corporate fascist police state are willing to do to maintain a death grip upon the masses in times of needs.
Thanks for your reminder of Rayne. Glad to hear you supported her.
Yeah, given the dribble they have all passed off as analysis wrt Ron Paul, I’d heartily suggest they are posing as progressives now, just like oh, Grayson, Frank, Kuch, and others who sold out and failed to stand for real change that would better the plight of we the people.
That kind of posing.
How cynical and demobilizing. So, what do you propose we do? I mean, if you’re going to post comments urging FDL limit the content on the website and not get into discussions of Paul’s politics, if you’re going to suggest Occupy is all a waste of energy, what is your prescription for addressing society’s problems?
There’s no perhaps about it as regards GLBT rights, much less marriage.
But that’s a quibble.
What I find more interesting is that if you replace Ron Paul with Gary Johnson, you get all the light one would want in a discussion, without all the heat.
The reason for that is RP’s long record and well established worldview at this point. He’s a cafeteria libertarian, picking and choosing freedoms, and has a large theocon streak. He’s spoken of his preference for Patriarchy a-la the Old Testament this past November.
So in reconciling his entire worldview, it’s completely reasonable for progressives to reject Paul, without compromising one bit of integrity – because rejecting Paul and his worldview doesn’t make one pro-war or any of the other claims.
Johnson is fine with gay marriage and pro-choice.
I have no dilemma here whatsoever, because not one of my beliefs is challenged in the least by Paul’s support of my positions where they overlap.
So youre answer to me is to turn everything around and blame me and make it my problem. Again just wow! FDL has been going seriously downhill since obama was elected with constant whoring and increasingly incoherent rants like this one. I was planning to remove this site off my daily reading list and this post is pretty much cementing that.
As far as OWS is concerned im sorry i didnt follow your rules about comments. I actually have respect for what they are doing. My point was that its unfortaunte that they really wont have any effect and that supporting a moron like Ron Paul pretending that it will somehow have an effect is similiar.
Rather than necklace OWSelves with Paul or the Obamanable Monster of DEPRAVITY; chose a FIRST (Justice) Party champion Against the DEMiserepubilkan MATRIX, Mr. Anderson! RockOn!!
It matters NOT if or how Obama might be confronted, he rules the roost for the 1%.
Confronting him is useless.
Defying him, defying the 1%, fighting for what’s best for we the people is the only way forward.
The rest of this fantasy of being inside the game and thinking Paul or anyone can change the system as is delusional as thinking we are not a corporate fascist police state of and empire in steady decline that neglects the masses.
C’mon Twain . . . we dance around this all the time, when are ya gonna accept a reality you refuse to acknowledge?
Im actually fine with people supporting whomever they want. Its a “free” country isnt is. But when people right things like this basically telling people that they HAVE to support him and making up ridiculous reasons why thats where i draw the line. And ive seen it ALOT on this site over the years. People put on astonishing filters to the evils and lies that various politicians do and then get angry when others dont agree with them and see them for the people who they really are.
Exactly! You want to effect obama and the dems supoort for the OLIGARCHY, sorry but i find the term 1% annoying, stop voting for democrats. Stop it! Stop voting for all of them. Put them out of business as a party. Seriously. MAking up excuses though why you are just voting for the “good” ones is nothing more then abused wife syndrome.
States rights are not a progressive issue, they are a left over remnant and horrid fallacy of the Civil War and are supported by right wing white racist and misogynist and homophobic old fat men and their offspring.
Ma’am!!!
Bingo.
Right fucking on, OFG, right fucin on.
I think that Kevin’s point is good. The discussion of Ron Paul has indeed been kinda knee-jerk in a lot of ways. Which is why I went to his biography. You have to understand what he says in terms of that biography and the times just as you have to understand that President Obama came of political age in an environment that was discussing the “death of liberalism” and touting Reaganism. Just as to understand what I say you have to understand that I came of political age during the Cold War, the Kennedy Administration, the Civil Rights movement and the war in Vietnam.
Ron Paul came of political age shortly after Atlas Shrugged was published and during the Civil Rights movement and bomb shelter era. He went to school Gettysburg PA and was at Duke Med when the Civil Rights movement broke out and then did his residency in Detroit. His understanding of states rights is exactly the same as Strom Thurmond’s because he was at Duke and absorbed the local attitudes of the time. In foreign affairs he is a libertarian isolationist, very much like the pre-WWII Republicans.
I understood Kevin to be asking that we look at political figures in their complexity and history instead of writing them off as cartoons. And I know that this year there are a number of GOP candidates who have cultivated the image of a cartoon. Ron Paul is not one of them.
Heh, interesting, may have to revert to being a Lefty myself . . .
I read Kevin’s post as supporting Ron Paul’s presence as a means to force debate on issues the establishment candidates won’t address. How some of you managed to turn that into support for Ron Paul (Larue, I’m looking at you) is a mystery.
This is sorta the same reaction Glenn Greenwald received, no matter that he carefully (as Kevin did) made clear he was NOT supporting Paul or endorsing him.
Read the post, people, not just what you want to assume it says based on your preconceptions.
I’m directly quoting Ron Paul on sexual harassment in the workplace.
His position is that if someone is behaving offensively towards you that your recourse is to not work there. Unless they assualt you any behavior is acceptable.
http://www.boston.com/Boston/politicalintelligence/2012/01/ron-paul-says-victim-sex-harassment-bears-some-responsibility-for-resolution/fyCUfBYPwVLj4eLcE4YnPI/index.html
And here is Ron Paul on the ADA. Won’t it be special when all the children with disabilities no longer have access to having their needs met because it isn’t a requirement that those needs be met.
It starts at 3:38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPOgzl1wvSA
He also opposes eqeual opportunity so we can go back to signs like this and AAs having no recourse.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/12/exclusive-white-only-pool-sign-owner-explains/
So yes the implications go well beyond abortion or gay marriage.
Thank you TarheelDem. Agreed. I am a bit younger than Ron Paul (I’m 69 this month) but I share some of his coming of age environment and I know it influences one’s thinking.
EDIT. This was supposed to be a reply to TarheelDem at #111. I’m not sure how it wound up a reply to myself. *rolls eyes*
Christ, the msm HAS disappeared Occupy.
DO you read the msm papers nationally and understand how they cover Occupy removals?
Occupy is dirty fucking hippies, anarchists, homelesd druggies and dregs of society threatening the good and prosperous.
You DO know this, right?
Occupy will NOT get good media coverage for the things you advocate.
I advocate Occupy continues to self define and NOT engage or align with others. Not for politics, not for nothing.
A thorn in the side they should be, moving, undefined, not encamped where they face threats of eviction (cuz they lose media war even in small towns, it’s proven).
I fully appreciate what you have done and FDL has done to provide for and support Occupy . . . it’s a good thing you all do.
But Occupy’s best means of continued existence is to NOT identify with much other than the unmet needs of the 99% and the mass of humanity that is we the people who are geting screwed top to bottom.
This is only the beginning of the worm that bores out from within.
This is the worm that will eat up the empire as it falls of its own volition.
Occupy just needs to continue to exist, in any form it can.
But about Ron Paul?
No. Not in any way o how.
I remain greatly disappointed in you and FDL for joining in this media frenzy . . . who ever championed THIS one at FDL has fielded a loser of your entire progressive readership.
Bad choice, people.
His position is exactly the opposite.
Calling Ron Paul good on civil liberties because he opposes indefinite detention or drone surveillance is as simplistic as you can get. It ignores what Paul’s policies in regards to individuals protections that Paul would eradicate for minorities.
Likewise I feel terming Paul a progressive on foreign policy simply because he opposed Iraq and Afghanistan as overly simplistic. Ron Paul also opposes being part of the international community, treaties and any type of foreign aid. Those positions are far from progressives.
Yet again the left side of the aisle chooses to start from right of center rather than actually frame the debate from the left. Sigh.
Fully agreed, simple truths, Ghost, well done.
There’s no effing way Occupy comes out clean if they confront these conventions, no way.
It’s Chitown and Daley all over again, dirty effin hippie anarchist commie lovin socialists creating trouble . . . lose.
WHAT media frenzy? Kevin suggested that Paul’s presence forces debate on issues that otherwise would be ignored. I did not see any indication of support for Ron Paul’s candidacy. Geez, get a grip.
My fucking dawg Kevin, these groups are in trouble from the entire structure of our USA, top to bottom.
The minority 1% owns and controls the 99%, and NOT for the benefit of the poor, coloreds, women, or LGBT’S.
WHAT PART OF THAT DON’T YOU GET?
You are starting to use the phraseology of bigots, their dog whistles and such.
Hmm.
If by default the premise is we must support Paul in order to get a discussion then I’d argue that is default support for his candidacy.
You either believe his candidacy adds to the debate or you don’t.
Molly, not only do I reject Kevin’s analysis, I reject any analysis that furthers Paul to enable some fantasy of “impacting” any other candidates and any issues at all.
To close, Paul is a fucking loon, and to use him in ANY way to further or declare any form of progressivism is purely horse shit and an affront to what progressivism stands for.
I don’t care if it’s support or so called analysis, any discussion of Paul as having value to any cause is NOT progressivism in any form and I will rail against it mightily!!!
Harumph, ma’am.
I believe (as Kevin does, I think) that Ron Paul’s presence as a candidate forces debate about issues the establishment candidates (Obama and the GOP clown car) do not address and frequently are in agreement about. For that forcing of debate, I don’t think it is a bad thing for Paul to remain a candidate, rather than being “disappeared” as unelectable and the discussion “disappeared” as well.
That has nothing whatever to do with the fact that I would never vote for him or support his election — the very thought of some of his views is repugnant. But if we don’t force debate, the status quo continues.
It’s funny but in 2006 I was confused at why the left side of the aisle has such trouble getting traction.
Now?
I completely get it. They start the debate determined to toss at least one constituency under the bus.
Hang on, I am not suggesting anywhere here that Occupy align or affiliate itself with Ron Paul.
Also, save for you and a couple others on this thread, most people have read this analysis post and appreciated it.
Yeah, it’s a bad choice to promote debate and discussion, to provoke reactions from people like you and then engage.
Hi, I’m a Lefty, I’m with ya.
Time to stop attacking using proggy, and label the faux proggy’s for what they are . . .
Opportunists and supporters of a white male dominant 1% corporate oligarch and police state.
End Of Story.
And who might this constituency be?
So you’d prefer that the issues of wars, foreign policy and civil liberties, all of which Obama is abysmal on, should simply be ignored, as they will be without a gadfly to interject them? There isn’t much daylight between the GOP clown car and Obama on most of them. So how, absent a Ron Paul person, do those views get discussed? I’d love a rational answer and not a “harumph” please.
Geebuz Mz. Molly, the entire MSM feeding frenzy that’s infested the blogospher and declared Ron Paul to be MEANINGFUL.
You payin attention?
He’s not, not in any way.
N too many so called proggy sites and people give him way too much white space. N so I rail and rant against that, ma’am.
Rightfully, so.
Harumph.
I dont give a rats ass about Ron Paul, Romney, Gingrich or Obama.
They are all corrupt politicians whose only purpose is to serve and protect the 1%. Adding Ron Paul to the “debate” changes NOTHING !
The American people have had it with BOTH POLITICAL PARTYS.
How about inviting the Green candidates to debate and get a REAL alternative. But NOOOOO…. political party worshipers cling to daddy political party and desperately want all debate to remain confined within the two corrupt legacy partys.
There is noting here except the same old tired crap of the two corrupt partys… and you continue to ignore the fact that Independents are the largest block of voters and Independent and Third Party candidates are no longer spoilers… they now have the ability to actually win.
The corrupt Democrats and corrupt Republicans have ruined our nation and they can no longer be allowed to run the country. The time has come for REAL change… the two corrupt legacy partys must be voted out of office… ALL OF THEM.
I am a lifelong liberal progressive and an EX-Democrat who re-registered as an Independent. I refuse to support either of the two corrupt partys candidates. I will vote Independent and Third Party candidates only.
Well I disagree with that 200%. Ron Paul’s presence sparks debate. That doesn’t mean I want him to be president.
Meaningful because he forces debate on issues we aren’t debating. Why is that so difficult to grasp? If he dropped out he’d be as ignored as yesterday’s newspaper, and so would the issues the MSM and the current candidates would prefer not to discuss (because they mostly agree, and they’re mostly contrary to popular opinion).
Sorry, this is becoming a fruitless conversation. I think I’ll go to bed.
And Kevin, thanks for the post and your cogent analysis. As good as Greenwald’s, IMO. Bravo. Well done.
In my opinion the fact that his policy positions are archaic and regressive is enough for me to applaud that so many on the right side of the aisle see the guy as unelectable.
I can promote the idea that we have our noses in too many people’s business without suggesting that the UN is out to get control of private land here in the US(and yes that is what he suggested in an Iowa stump speech)
Ron Paul sparks debate about Ron Paul.
Wikileaks and the release of the collateral murder video sealed the fate of the war, and propelled the country to the finish line in terms of just being done with the wars.
That act inspired actual debate.
I think it’s limiting to frame that national debates only happen in terms of Presidential candidates. The actual debating is happening all the time with different episodes making punctuation marks.
Ron Paul is neither crucial, nor required for it to happen.
Not only des the 1% own and control the 99% no for the benefit of the poor, coloreds, women or LGBT’s (as you put it), those positions that are antagonistic to the poor, coloreds, women, or LGBTs are aimed at separating the working-class, white, male, heterosexuals from their economic interests by playing on their prejudices.
Abortion is not a moral issue for the GOP (except for a few useful idiots like Santorum), it is a wedge issue used in the 1970s and 1980s to separate urban Catholics and Southern Baptists from the Democratic Party. And now must have the ante upped in order to stay relevant.
And once you allied yourself with the Christian bigots, you bought into the whole deal else you lost them at election time. Prayer in schools, suppression of gays, the whole nine yards. Else the churches and the religious returned to the apolitical stance they had in the 1950s. Or worse, to supporting the poor, coloreds, women, and LGBTs as the religious left has done in the spirit of reconciliation.
Which is why one of the non-negotiable principles of Occupy Wall Street is that it is against bigotry in any form. And why one of the continuing issues in general assemblies is how that gets real with respect to the participation of women, people of color, and LGBTs. And that discussion continues.
But what Kevin says is true. They would be in as much trouble with a Paul administration as in a Romney or Santorum or Gingrich or even Huntsman administration. They would be dealing with unapologetic bigots.
Dear, the forcing of this debate thang is as faux as Fox News.
It’s of no value.
It’s not real, and regardless of ANY measure of this supposed MSM created fantasy that occurs, it too will be faux.
This is base fantasy I reject, of you and Kevin’s or any one’s postulates that it’s REAL or of any value.
It’s useless, it’s pie nin the sky, it will NOT influence the final outcomes of any thing, presidential elections and CERTAINLY not policy or ACTIONS by this corporate fascist police state.
It matters now not who governs, who is elected, or even who runs.
It matters not, I repeat, it matters not.
The 1% control it all from the Executive, Congress, Judiciary, MIC, state, county, town, township and unincorporated parcels.
They own every single elected offal and every bit of our lives.
And if you are now down with that Mz. Molly, yer sadly out of touch for a professed progressive who champions human rights.
Wish ya well, but yer ignoring some simple truths, beginning with Ron Paul, and the coverage of him, in the blogosphere and the MSM.
Well in this case it’s anyone not a heterosexual white male without disabilities.
His policies are awful for everyone else and I think I did fairly well at enummerating that the evisceration of regulating equal opportunity and discrimination that Paul wishes to inflict on anyone not of that persuasion.
Fully agreed . . .
Say, I didn’t USE to agree with you this much, did I?
I don’t disagree, Kelly. I am just responding to the commenters who think Kevin’s suggestion that the presence of Ron Paul generates debate on things that aren’t being debated is the equivalent of support for Ron Paul as president. And the halleluiah chorus on some of these issues, with currently Obama as lead vocalist, leads me to want an off-key contralto in the back capturing attention. Just that.
And now I really AM going to bed. I’ve said my say. Several times. Enough.
Ironically enough, Larue, thirdpartyplease acts as if Kevin is a hardcore Obama supporter. (No, I can’t figure it out, either.)
Yer off on yer assessment of who likes or dislikes yer diary.
N that ain’t the issue.
I never said Occupy should align with Ron Paul, or against, I said they should remain apolitical. So, you got THAT wrong.
Hey, spare me from your victim shit of accusing me of inhibiting debate and conversation.
YOU put it up, it’s fair game, bubba.
I am HEARTILY engaging in debate and conversation!!!
You GET that don’t ya?
LMAO calling me out for your victim hood cuz I called you out.
That’s something Rove and the GOP or DIM think thanks would spew. Sad, hoss, sad.
You have now failed me on more than a few levels of pure and just journalism and progressivism.
We should just part ways . . . I can’t support you any more.
Thank you.
That was one of my points as well.
Making Ron Paul part of the national debate is super duper crucial.
Yet do I hear GG or Stoller or any of these others insisting that Jill Stein’s positions or Rocky Anderson’s positions should be part of the debate?
No.
Ron Paul sucks up all the oxygen. Instead of promoting real discussion we start the debate yet again from right center rather than from the left.
This in response to Mz Molly somewhere up there:
These issues get discussed by the likes of David Dayen, Jon Walker, and dozen’s of other FULLY progressive voices at this blog and at many other blogs including AW dot com and Asia TImes Online, to name just two.
End of story gal . . . I’ve said my piece . . . and peace.
You DO read Raimondo, don’t you? A crazed loon of a libertarian but peacenik . . . Juan Cole, Pepe Escobar, Edland, Philip Giraldi and many others?
Those are a few of my sources of enlightenment.
Howdy, brothuh or sistuh declined to state!
Nice to meetcha.
It does NOT spark debate, that’s a fallacy!
Who said that it does, and where is there ANY proof of polls that say so?
N then, I’ll say them polls lie cuz they get PAID to produce outcome polling info by those who CONTRACT them to do the polling!
It’s all bought and paid for, you know that, yes?
WORD ya Silver Tongued Devil.
Hey PW, yeah, incongruities abound in the toobz, but I try and cover only my thots about others.
Heck if I can cover it all . . .
Stay warm up there ma’am . . .
Again, fully agreed.
Greetings…
Independent voters [not affiliated with any political party because we can think for ourselves] are going to have to rescue the country from the brainwashed/braindead worshipers of the corrupt political partys.
“But what Kevin says is true. They would be in as much trouble with a Paul administration as in a Romney or Santorum or Gingrich or even Huntsman administration. They would be dealing with unapologetic bigots.”
This is what I mean by throwing constituencies under the bus though.
Paul ought to be excoriated by the left for most of his positions instead they are all falling all over themselves to promote the idea that the guy is rational, moderate and “good on civil liberties.” They can’t seem to see past promoting him on one or two ideas rather than taking him on as a whole.
Why progressives have taken up the mantle of defending a guy whose policies are to the right of center and would likely have a horrible outcome for so many is beyond me. They’d be better served to find a foil from the left side of the aisle to promote positions like peace. Anti regulation of corporations, decentralization of national issues like education, diminishment of personal choice and social safety nets are too costly and will ultimately lead to that government that is small enough to drown in the bathtub.
Kevin,
You are doing stellar work. You are on the lines with the Occupy folks, reporting the Bradley Manning case, and posting intelligent and insightful information such as contained above.
Thanks!
Thank you, msmolly, for your many comments.
I, for one, am still furious at Ralph Nader. In the 2000 election, unlike now, there WAS a difference between the major candidates. There were other factors behind Bush’s stealing the presidency, but he could not have done it without Nader’s help.
Rigid ideology and blind loyalty is bad irregardless of where it is on the political spectrum. Thinking and, periodically, re-thinking one’s positions are a good idea. Has everyone forgotten about what was accomplished with the Fed when Paul and Kucinich teamed up? Does that make Dennis a “traitor” to the cause?
Ditto and why aren’t more words spent on Gary Johnson as per Kelly Canfield@101? I’m not a Libertarian and have no interest in electing either of them but why does the whole progressive herd move in Paul’s direction rather than Johnson’s?
“Except for abortion and perhaps gay marriage, I don’t know what rights or civil liberties Ron Paul physically threatens.”
Is the presidency now a dictator? What happened to Congress and the Courts? How can Ron Paul or any President take away your rights without the consent of Congress?
Oh….wait….the NDAA was just passed, the President is a dictator and can kill, torture and disappear any citizen upon his/her order. Well, well, then I suppose we should be terrified of a Ron Paul presidency since he would inherit dictatorial powers from the previous “progressive” Peace Prize Winner.
Ron Paul believes in the Constitution, which outlines a three-branch government, and checks and balances. Unless you believe we have a dictator in the executive which has neutered and made irrelevant the other two branches of government, Ron Paul couldn’t take away your rights without the consent of Congress and review by the Courts.
Oh, BTW, great article and analysis. Spot on.
Ron Paul 2012
“Hang on, I am not suggesting anywhere here that Occupy align or affiliate itself with Ron Paul.”
When the Occupy movement was at its heydey, before they got kicked out of their parks and shut down, I suggested that they align themselves with Ron Paul.
Of course I was skewered by everyone as a kook, loon and wingnut. I was told that Occupy didn’t need to align themselves with ANY politician.
I responded that sitting around holding General Assemblies everyday would end up doing nothing if they didn’t get their views in the MSM and politic landscape via SOME CANDIDATE, and at this point the only candidate supporting many of their views was Ron Paul.
Now, none of the candidates need talk about Occupy. Occupy is irrelevant to the presidential candidates.
Seriously? Seriously?? Seriously???
Nader did not help Bush steal the election. It’s too bad that so many progressives find this a reasonable charge to make against someone who has done a lot of good for consumers in American society. He had a right to run in the election just like Al Gore and George W. Bush and the other “minor party” candidates that were on the ballot like Pat Buchanan.
Nader has a great background as a pioneer consumer advocate. Unfortunately, his actions during the 2008 campaign were a blot on his career. Everyone knew before November 2008 that the presidential election was exceptionally close. Knowing this, Nader should have confined his vigorous campaigning to states that were overwhelmingly red or blue. Instead, he continued to campaign hard in swing states such as Florida. Of course Nader had a right to run, but his actions in November 2008 showed an obliviousness to the stakes involved. We have paid the price ever since. (This is not intended to be a commentary on what we should do in 2012 where, unlike in 2000, the differences between the probable presidential candidates are infinitesimal.)
Wow, sorry to be so late, hard to get inspired to write when the tide has likely already passed and moved on. So, just a couple bullet points.
First, Kevein, great piece, you continue to bloom in a most impressive way, and demonstrate your aptitude for dealing with the complex and the subtle. By contrast, those attacking you here have all the sublety of an elephant’s prick.
Second, each of the many specific arguments made here against using Paul as a vehicle to expand the debate to include what should be universally regarded as crucial issues, would be simple to demolish as logically fallacious, but not worth taking the time and space to do here, especially since those emotionally committed to making those arguments are showing themselves to have a preference for their emotional judgments rather than objective rationality, and so would remain unmoved.
Third, and this is my real point, and one which I think sweeps all others away as a tsunami sweeps away the sand castles, the entire concept of democracy and freedom of expression relies on the underlying concept of A MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS. Let me say that again. MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS. Any who argue against getting any important idea into the debate, by whatever means available, are just showing themselves to be control freaks above all, and not truth-seekers. Truth-seekers facilitate debate, control freaks seek to limit it to their comfort zone. MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS, people. It’s the most basic ideal of all.
“2008″ in the comment above should read “2000.”
I’ll just add, for those preferring Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson, or Gary Johnson as vehicles to expand the debate, that would be great if they were being heard AT ALL. But they are not, so far, and Paul’s is the only voice that is audible on the issues pertinent to this discussion.
You are absolutely right to bring in Nader–a point missing in much of the back-and-forth on this topic. I don’t know why Stoller and others ignored Nader in their considerations–unless it was because including him would negate aspects of their arguments that the left had not put forward some of the issues Paul is advancing. The left has done that, and Nader is still doing that.
It is hard to overstate how effectively the Democratic Party has demonized and marginalized Nader. What happened to Howard Dean pales in comparison. And what Nader attackers fail to address is that there were many other 3rd party candidates on the Florida ballot as well–and I believe that the vote totals that any of them received would have put Gore over the top. And Gore did run an absolutely horrible campaign, and he did not himself fight sufficiently during the legal contest.
Ancient history, but I think you are entirely correct in bringing Nader into this as he is very relevant to this liberal fracas, whether your cited authors want to believe it or not.
I deeply appreciate your support of and reporting on Occupy, but WHOA, you lost me there. Nader didn’t help Bush in 2000? Ralph is right on almost all the important issues, and in a sane world would be a serious candidate. In 2000 he was ultimately just a spoiler.
Like Paul, he did provoke some debate, but he was one of the top four or five reasons Gore lost. He stayed in because of his conviction that there was no substantial difference between Gore and GWB. Events proved him wrong, most clearly on Iraq and the environment, but also on torture, habeus and many other issues.
Nader’s history as an effective consumer advocate has nothing to do with his disastrous, narcissistic judgement to stay in the 2000 race.
As to Paul, he seems a bright, sad, twisted hater. His positions against the national security state apparatus and eternal war are mostly for the wrong reasons. His opposition to the corporate oligarchy, bank bailouts and the Fed are economic gibberish. Also a narcissist, he does provoke debate.
OWS would get MSM coverage for economic inequality issues by raising a stink in the 2012 election. Short-term gain. Participating in an electoral process that is irretrievably corrupt, even in protest, would end the movement.
Ron Paul is a significantly more racist, homophobic, anti-semitic and misogynist version of Pat Buchanan. Substantively the two are very close, both were outspoken in their opposition to the Iraq war and American imperialism. No liberal could support either candidate.
People who are attracted to candidates like Nader, Buchanan or Paul are generally political neophytes. They have yet to think through the implications of their political beliefs, and so have not developed the critical filter that would prevent them from falling for demagogues. They hear what they want to hear on a couple of key points and go with their gut. Some go on to incorporate the bigoted world-view that underlies Ron Paul’s politics and become full-fledged reactionaries like him, or they come to a more sophisticated understanding and become Republicans. It is unusual to go from a sympathetic understanding of Ron Paul’s politics to any form of liberalism, because his politics are incoherent unless founded on bigotry.
There appear to be many people who were seduced by Obama’s rhetoric and missed his substantive political positions, not realizing that he was the most conservative Democratic candidate in the field. In their disappointment they may be tempted to fall for the next person saying what they want to hear. But they shouldn’t make the same mistake twice, a politician’s substantive positions matter more than their sound-bites.
Gosztola…
100% agree with your comment 159.
Nader had and still has a right to run and so does anyone else. In fact they should run. Nothing will ever change until we take back our country from the corrupt political partys and their corruptors.
These people claiming that Americans should surrender their right to run for office to the corrupt political partys are just showing themselves to be the braiswashed political party dupes they are. How dare someone claim that only Corrupt Democrats and Corrupt Republicans have the right to run for office. That is absurd and arrogant beyond belief. The corrupt political party followers/worshipers FEAR real change and they have chosen sides in favor of corrupt political partys who represent the 1%… and they have taken sides AGAINST the American people. Thats just how totally brainwashed they are. This cant go on any longer.
Really makes you wonder about the internal workings of some peoples’ brains, doesn’t it? You should be involved. How involved? Some significant level of involvement, perhaps supporting one of the two major parties corporation-approved choices for you, but definitely not the ultimate involvement of putting yourself on the line and becoming a candidate. Sheesh! OR, alternatively, why not get so caught up in your ad hominem frenzy that, because you don’t like the PERSON, you are willing to completely exclude such important ISSUES as civil liberties, rule of law, runaway Fed, drug war, foreign undeclared wars from the extended political discussion that is possible only during a Presidential campaign cycle. Sheesh! This is supposed to be the place to find enlightened thinkers.
Anyone claiming that only Corrupt Democrats and Corrupt Republicans have the the right to run for office… is the exact opposite of enlightened.
As for the issues you named… both partys are INDENTICAL on those issues… try paying attention. That is exactly why we need alternative [Independent, Green Party, Third Party, 100th Party] candidates to be inculded in the “debates”…and to run for office… not just members of the corrput political partys.
Um, ivn, you should re-read my comment, a bit more carefully. I was trying to AGREE with you. (An increasingly-not-uncommon thing lately.) Perhaps I am at fault for not writing more clearly, but I thought it was clear enough.
RC… lol
I thought we were on the same side of these issues… glad you confirmed that. So I will refer to your comment above… no 161… with which I TOTALLY agree. Well said.
I would also add… because this issue of excluding ideas and non-legacy party candidates from debates and from running for office…
Fellow member Liz Berry brought up a VERY important issue in one of her diaries. She talked about the TOTAL SCAM of the Commission on Presidential Debates. This scam is run by the two corrupt political partys and it’s only purpose is to exclude others from the scam “presidential debates”. It is a travesty. The League of Women Voters withdrew support for the scam presidential debates because… and I quote them… “the demands of the two campaign organizations would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter.”
This is exactly the kind of fraud the corrupt politicl partys are playing on the American people… and it needs to stop NOW. We can no longer tolerate this crap. The time has come to break the back of the corrupt two party system. The corruptors of our government have figured out a very simple thing. In order to get everything they want… all they have to do is corrupt both partys… and that’s exactly what they have done. This cant go on any longer.
Agree totally that non-cooperation with the major parties is a necessary minimum. I would also say, arguing for the the exclusion of ideas seems to imply that one believes one could achieve major political changes all at once, thru a single clever political maneuver. But you can’t work magic on millions that way. Ideas need time to percolate thru the masses, sometimes a LOT of time, so anything that gets important ideas into the discussion agenda is a good thing. We can’t afford the luxury of waiting for the perfect messenger when it comes to crucial issues.
RP is the lesser evil between him and Obama. Obama gives a false, empty, and utterly meaningless kind of support to gay rights, reproductive health, and race issues while practicing radical capitalism and massively expanding the war on terror.
Obama is against gay marriage due to his christian fundamentalism, and is extremely against trans people and, for instance, doing anything about the millions of homeless, exploited LGBT youth living on the streets; so as a gay person, I really don’t support the scumbag. Furthermore, he is also just fine with institutional racism–with letting black people starve in the ghetto and rot in jails in highly disproportionate amounts. Obama and the democrats are attacking social security and medicare, not just the republicans.
It would be great if RP won the republican nomination, then I would absolutely support him over Obama, though not over the Justice or green party candidate. We always have alternatives.
At last, a voice of reason. Thank-you, msmolly. I think Kevin’s post was quite clear.
“President Obama could challenge him on reproductive rights, government regulation, marriage equality, health care, taxes and the role of the federal government in providing welfare to citizens.”
Obama is in the right wing on all of those issues; someone like Cynthia Mckinney or Ralph Nader could come out and challenge him from a perspective of single-payer healthcare, progressive taxation, housing for all, full employment, etc. They would blow him out of the water.
The Confines of US Elections & The Scorn a Person Can Face For Challenging Them.
So, judging from the comments here, I’d say Kevin has been proven right that a person can draw a lot of scorn for challenging the confines of US elections.