A poll released by the Washington Post and ABC News provided another opportunity to discuss how important civil liberties and national security issues are to liberals. The poll results showed majority support among liberals for President Barack Obama’s handling of “counterterrorism,” including his use of drone strikes and failure to close Guantanamo Bay prison.
Scott Wilson and Jon Cohen, for the Washington Post, concluded the results show Obama’s inability to “change national security policies he criticized as inconsistent with US law and values” would pose little liability in the 2012 Election. He has “little to fear politically for failing to live up to all of those promises,” especially because the poll also showed “attacking Obama’s national security policies…may do GOP challengers more harm than good when many Americans favor a national security that relies more on technology than troops.”
The poll results are as follows: 70 percent of Americans approve of keeping Guantanamo Bay prison open (53 percent of liberals support keeping it open); 83 percent of Americans approve of using drones (77 percent of liberals support drone use). And, 65 percent support drone use when the targets are US citizens (55 percent of liberals approve of targeting US citizens).
Asked what my immediate reaction to the results was by Alyona Minkovski on RT’s “The Alyona Show” last night, I answered, “I think their revolting poll numbers, but I don’t think that they’re entirely surprising, given that back in July 2010 we had the ACLU warning the Obama Administration was in danger of establishing a new normal.” [See the top of this post for video of my interview appearance.]
Obama has prolonged an era where officials, who commit crimes, are shielded from accountability for engaging in warrantless wiretapping, torture, or rendition; state secrets are invoked to prevent transparency; detainees are denied habeas corpus; prisons like Guantanamo and Bagram (along with black prison sites that likely still exist) continue to hold detainees perhaps indefinitely; navy ships hold prisoners that can no longer be sent to Guantanamo because there will be public outrage; the right to target and kill U.S. civilians and bypass due process is asserted; and military commissions or “kangaroo courts” force detainees into Kafkaesque proceedings that make it nearly impossible to not be found guilty.
Worse, in the years since the ACLU warned of a “new normal” being established, President Obama has made legitimate the killing of “terror suspects,” including US citizens, without charge or trial by drones. He has presided over a revolution in military affairs, where Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), the CIA and the National Security Council (NSC) each keep a “kill list” of targets to be extra-judicially assassinated.
He also allowed Congress a National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that codifies into US law a provision that grants the military the power to indefinitely detain US citizens without charge or trial for whatever reason the government may want to detain a citizen indefinitely. Essentially, what happened to Jose Padilla, a Latino Muslim who was held without charge in complete isolation for three and a half years in a military brig, is now much more legitimate.
Politically and culturally, policies which should be abhorrent to anyone claiming to support the rule of law instead have proper justification to a majority of Americans, including liberals. They subscribe to the fear that there are people from a “far reaching network of violence and hatred,” as Obama said in his inaugural address, that pose “threats” to America. Liberals are willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt that they would never have given Bush because he is not seen as a dumb cowboy and they don’t find terrorism to be an “overblown” issue. But, that only partly explains the results.
Glenn Greenwald, who has been one of the most outspoken critics of liberals’ embrace of policies that undermine civil liberties, noted how the results reinforced what he has been warning against all along: how Obama has been able to transform some of the most “right-wing” policies of Bush Administration into policies with broad bipartisan consensus and support.
Greenwald suggested:
When one of the two major parties supports a certain policy and the other party pretends to oppose it — as happened with these radical War on Terror policies during the Bush years — then public opinion is divisive on the question, sharply split. But once the policy becomes the hallmark of both political parties, then public opinion becomes robust in support of it. That’s because people assume that if both political parties support a certain policy that it must be wise, and because policies that enjoy the status of bipartisan consensus are removed from the realm of mainstream challenge. That’s what Barack Obama has done to these Bush/Cheney policies: he has, as Jack Goldsmith predicted he would back in 2009, shielded and entrenched them as standard U.S. policy for at least a generation, and (by leading his supporters to embrace these policies as their own) has done so with far more success than any GOP President ever could have dreamed of achieving. [emphasis added]
The salient point here is that President Barack Obama has made it much harder for people concerned with civil liberties to argue against inhumane and repressive “war on terror” policies. His unwillingness to be a transformative leader, which has led to the Guantanamo Bay prison remaining open (including allowing interrogations involving prolonged isolation and sleep deprivation continue), the development of an apparatus for lawlessly launching drone strikes, along with his administration’s “war on whistleblowing”—That all makes it much harder for left-leaning people with moral fortitude and courage to argue against these policies.
However, there should be no misconceptions. Liberals may not really be supportive of keeping Guantanamo open or that they do not support holding Bush Administration officials accountable for torture (which I realize wasn’t even a poll question) because they think either should continue in a democratic and free society. They may be showing support because they are weak and timid. They probably do not see Obama as someone capable of closing Guantanamo or prosecuting officials that committed war crimes so it becomes difficult for them to advocate for these moral (and legal) objectives.
The absence of true opposition to these policies from those in the Democratic Party leads liberals, who were opposed under Bush, to slowly become acceptable with it because they convince themselves Obama is trying his hardest and would do more if Republicans were not so obstructive. This explains why support for Guantanamo Bay is higher than it was under Bush in 2003. (Of course, that presumes that Obama ever put his Administration in a politically untenable situation that ultimately led him to have to cave because there was absolutely no way to close the prison or prosecute Bush Administration officials.)
Bipartisan consensus is further entrenched, but it is further entrenched because of the gutless political mindset, which many liberals operate under. They may not necessarily support all of the policies, which those concerned with civil liberties condemn, but they appear to support them because they are focused on expediency—what agenda items can be advanced in the rotten political environment in Washington, DC.
The two-party system in America plays a key role. When neither a Democratic or Republican candidate is taking up certain issues because they have bipartisan consensus, liberals do not have the fortitude to push them into debates. When the incumbent candidate refuses to open up conversation on important issues, liberals are hesitant to run primary challengers that will put the issues on the table. Do not even broach the subject of supporting third party candidates during elections so that pressure can be put on politicians. They will lash out at you in such a way that you might think you just betrayed a military oath.
This is why it was appropriate for the Advocacy Center for Equality & Democracy to rhetorically pose these questions yesterday:
As a citizen and a voter in our democracy, is your role to blindly follow your leader, or to use your political power (your vote) to promote and protect your values? Are your values your own, or do you let your political party define them for you?
Too many liberals let what political leaders think is impossible set the boundaries for the values or principles they routinely promote in conversations with others on social media, comments threads and, more generally, the Internet.
This is why civil liberties are scarcely ever a primary issue for liberals. This is why it is appropriate for Chris Hedges to conclude in his book, Death of the Liberal Class, “Liberals who say they are the champions of basic civil liberties do not challenge politicians who take those civil liberties from them.” This is also why the late American sociologist C. Wright Mills’ words, which he wrote in The Power Elite, still carry resonance today:
It is much safer to celebrate civil liberties than to defend them; it is much safer to defend them as a formal right than to use them in a politically effective way…It is easier still to defend someone else’s right to have used them years ago than to have something yourself to say now and to say it now forcibly.
All of which suggests that the biggest take away from the poll results is confirmation or affirmation that these liberals will not be on the vanguard of any push to restore civil liberties. They will wait in the wings until others have shown great moral courage and made great sacrifice. They will let marginalized communities fight these battles on their own, sometimes paying them lip service. Then, when it becomes fashionable to speak out, they will offer some semblance of a defense of civil liberties—at least, until another political figurehead comes along to tamp down their concern.
I suppose the results may also partially explain why liberals would be so incensed about the war on reproductive rights for women and persisting policies of racial injustice in America. I suppose that is why they are able to vociferously fight for LGBT rights for people. Those current battles are tied to struggles that began decades ago. The struggle to defend habeas corpus, oppose torture, halt pervasive surveillance and stop drone use really are 21st Century struggles. They are fights against gross injustices that have proliferated since billowing clouds of ash blew through the streets of New York on 9/11. And, these injustices may have been problems for communities, like Muslims, under President Bill Clinton, but they became more intense after politicians began to exploit the visceral imagery of airplanes crashing into the Twin Towers.



83 Comments

Great article Kevin. So many great points.
On a similar note, I just saw Manning’s arraignment hearing is scheduled for February 23rd. Will you be going back to Ft. Meade to report on this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/09/bradley-manning-formal-trial-23-february
I’m in a local political discussion group on Facebook. I posted a link to Greenwald’s excellent piece on this poll yesterday. So far not one comment to my post. Evidently no one thinks it’s even worthy of a response. Thank you for writing this piece Kevin because now I can post a comment to my own post from yesterday with a link to your piece. lol Maybe that will get some kind of discussion going.
Seriously, it breaks my heart to see these poll numbers. These people aren’t liberal, they’re faux liberals when it suits them. Shame on all of them.
I don’t know if I will be there on February 23 but when he actually has the court-martial I plan to be in attendance.
They are Democrats first, liberals or progressives second. They have more concern about what impact their values or principles might have on the Democratic Party than they care about how showing fortitude or courage might force political leaders to not trample upon civil liberties or constitutional rights.
Sadly, I do think there’s a section of liberals who do think drones are a positive. They buy into supporting this kind of warfare as a substitute for full-scale military wars and occupations. And that is appalling.
There were a section of liberals who thought Japanese internment was OK, who wanted the labor unions purged of many on the left who had help create them under difficult suppression, and who were terrified into silence by Joseph McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover.
OT– Re your question and what Huffington Post reporter, Jason Cherkis, has to say:
Bonus from Business Insider reporter, David Seaman:
OT– @F29Action is no longer just a US thing:
Photo of OccupyBMV
I’ve looked at many poll results over the last few decades and it seems like only about 20% of American adults have any wisdom when it comes to public policy. Most Americans deserve the misery and the awful government they have, but it sucks for the rest of us.
“liberals” Are you FU**ING kidding me? Liberals became Libertarians long ago. The rest are (mostly) mis and/or ill informed sheeple who call themselves Conservatives or Progressives.
From someone on the outside looking in, I can assure you that both collections of useful idiots ought to be ashamed and that they definitely deserve the label of useful idiots.
The corporations tell us what “liberal” is. The Washington Post and ABC, and NBC and CIA have lied for ten years and longer.
This is Obama warmonger propaganda. Obama’s propaganda is much more clumsy than the Bushie propaganda machine. The American people oppose Obama’s wars. Everyone knows it is all lies.
What a screaming joke (on You). “nonpartisanliberal” my ass. 20% of the population is reliably ‘progressive’.
Nothing Liberal about ‘progressives’. Progressives are just a bunch of jack booted thugs who desire a form of authoritarian rule than appeals to them.
B.T.W.
You folks are easy to spot when you claim to be ‘nonpartisan’. Dishonesty is the first clue.
Isn’t it so great, that we elected a Constitutional law scholar emergent from the vaunted Harvard university. Oh, wait.
(Harvard should be burned to the ground; it is a nexus of power, wealth, and class entitlement, and a testimony to everything gone wrong in the US in terms of class inequality.)
You are an ass. You make a lot of stupid and wrong assumptions. You equate that 20% figure (that is probably generous) with people who call themselves progressive. I don’t assume any such association. Further, you make assumptions about me that are wrong. Not only am I not affiliated with any party, I have frequently criticized Democratic politicians and Democratic partisans who support Obama in spite of his constant breaking of promises and other deceptions.
So you can take your personal attack and shove it up your ass. It’s there you will find your head.
This is so disheartening. I also have given up trying to inform or discuss with my fellow (self-described) liberals within the Democratic Party establishment. They simply don’t care as long as a man who calls himself Democrat is in power. The same is the case for Obama’s success at restoring the wealth and power of the system that sustains our 1%. Nobody seems to care as long as Obama does it.
Liberals don’t support indefinite detentions without charges or drone warfare. Remember that people like Lanny Davis and Mark Penn call themselves “liberal” but that doesn’t make them so.
A quick review of your past comments reveal you to be nothing but a racist troll.
I was horrified at Bush administration lies that took us to ‘war’ in Iraq. I found many allies among liberal Democrats who also opposed the war. I was very disappointed, when these same liberal Democrats fell in line with the Obama war policies – which were a seamless continuation of the Bush administration. It turns out, many Americans are ‘programmed’ to follow the party line – whether they are Democrats or Republicans. It is sad how few actually think for themselves. Those who do think are the small minority that can be found posting on blogs like this one.
Flag it’s profile for calling people vile names. I just did.
(And I’m guessing that “useful idiots” is the latest
TeaKoch Party approved buzz phrase.)Lanny Davis and Mark Penn are close to the heart of the Democratic Party – regardless of which name you wish to apply to them they ARE the Democratic Party.
Gee, how cute. I’m a racist. If you only knew how truly funny that statement is!
So “nonpartisanliberal”, how do you feel about the current regime? Are you down with that?
Check out Iris Mack and Snoop little Mr./Ms ‘racist’ person (like you even know what a racist is),
L.M.F.A.O.
Those aren’t liberals. They are partisans. They may have convinced themselves that they support liberal values but clearly they do not. Those kind of people pick a political side like other people pick a team. Policy isn’t important to “liberals” like Chris Matthews and Markos Moulitsas, only which side “wins” the game and to hell with the rest of us who are just dirty f*cking hippies to them.
Hey margret, before I’m deleted… Maybe you should do some research into the term “useful idiot”? I’ll give you a clue. The term originated in Greece.
Capiche?
Unlikely. I’m way over your head.
Just for the dense:
W.T.F. is going on in Greece?
Oh, but you are a Liberal right?
Clowns.
When did I say they were not Democrats??? I CLEARLY said they weren’t Liberal. Maybe you should try reading my comments before deciding what they say. There is a difference between a Republican and a conservative as well, though there is a lot of overlap, just like between Liberals and Democrats. Nothing like pretending I said something that I did not.
My objection to your comment isn’t limited to the term “useful idiots”, it also includes things like “clowns”, the suggestion that anything you can say would be “way over my head, (unlikely btw), “dense” and “jack booted thugs”. Why you are still be allowed to post is beyond me.
CONSERVATIVE driven austerity policy is what’s going on in Greece. Read much?
It was quite telling that Carl Levin, one of the less awful Democrats in the Senate, co-authored legislation that allows the Executive Branch to arrest suspected terrorists and hold them indefinitely without charging or trying them.
The mandarins of the Democratic Party have decreed that civil liberties are a “vanity issue,” one not to be taken seriously, because it doesn’t poll well.
In my best Cameron (from Ferris Beuller’s Day Off) voice: “Kevin Gosztola, you’re my hero.”
Likewise:
Cameron: I am not going to sit on my ass as the events that affect me unfold to determine the course of my life. I’m going to take a stand. I’m going to defend it. Right or wrong, I’m going to defend it.
I flagged that user two months ago, to little effect.
I think that if you cherry-pick who the “liberals” are in your polling, you can come up with any damn thing you want.
While they were at it, I’ll be they could have asked if those “liberals” would support a “pre-emptive” attack on Iran, and most of them would.
Obama’s doing the same thing that Bush was doing; just stringing out some really shitty policies and their fallout.
Can he keep doing it all the way to the election? Stay tuned.
A couple of points, Kevin:
1) “This Washington Post-ABC News poll was conducted by telephone February 1 to 4, 2012, among a random national sample of 1,000 adults, including landline and cell phone-only respondents. The results from the full survey have a margin of sampling error of plus or minus four percentage points. Sampling, data collection and tabulation by Abt-SRBI of New York.” Am I missing where it is stated that this is a poll of registered Liberals?
2) I do not have any confidence in any polling presented by the MSM.
Kevin, when this WaPo article came out in the middle of last week, I commented on a prior FDL News thread that the cross-tabs in the raw results did not mention “liberal” anywhere. The raw results don’t even mention the word “Democrat” except once to identify preznit as a Democrat.
I haven’t done this very often, so I hope this works; here are links to two of my comments on Feb. 8:
LINK 1
LINK 2
Did WaPo actually release raw results for the poll showing cross-tabs for ideological orientation? Are there any published raw results actually scoring responses for sub-samples of “Democrats and “liberals?” (Questions 9-12 were withheld for future publication, perhaps the cross-tabs were in those questions.)
Wow! I owe you a drink.
Maybe it could be that the potential censor at F.D. is a liberal?
Look, If I have offended you or anyone else then I do not feel good about that. I don’t want to hurt feelings. What I do want is to challenge your assumptions about right/wrong and make it more difficult for you (or I) to be rigid and trapped by ideology. I reject that ideology be static. Ideology, in my opinion, ought to grow as do individuals. What I see killing this country is that fundamentally good people have been locked into mortal combat that can realistically be reduced or simplified as an us VS them game.
I understand this to be Hegelian dialectic.
I despise hypocrisy because hypocrisy is not just a form of deceit, it is the most insidious and disgusting form of deceit.
Hate me all you want but I submit that the Left has shamed themselves by going full court hysterical over G.W. on the debt/deficit and civil liberties and yet with obamma you whine and fidget, but that is all. You will vote to give him four more years.
I’m disgusted by that and my disgust leads to anger, even fury.
Greece is not suffering due to capitalism, Greece is suffering because the citizens of Greece decided to elect politicians who lied to them. Those politicians made promises that could not be kept.
Life is not a picnic.
Unfortunately, the whole Obamabot experience has shown that liberals are as prone to being sheep as conservatives are.
All those run-on sentences make me want to pour myself a drink, but it’s not yet noon.
This blog and others believe we can only vote for two parties, so what do you expect? If the neocons fool everyone into voting for a neocon dem, we must all vote for a neocon, and support neocon values. There is no alternative.
I never see this blog promoting the candidacies of Rocky Anderson or Jill Stein.
From the hyperlink:
So it is self-identified liberal DEMOCRATS and not self-identified liberals.
I’ve made it quite clear that I’ve had it with the Democratic Party; and that in November, I’ll vote for a third-party candidate if an acceptable one gets on the ballot. If no one acceptable is on the ballot, I’ll write in Ndamukong Suh.
looks like commenting is shut down for a moment
the numbers in the comment @38 are not in the raw results of that poll. The numbers may be what that paper’s reporters and editors want to claim from the poll, but there are no such numbers in the raw results published so far by that paper unless they released additional numbers after Feb. 8.
This is the most telling part Kevin’s piece to me. Liberals claim the general progress of the American Empire is demonstrated by it’s creeping removal of anachronistic injustices. These war-mongering violations are a severe, reintroduced obstacle and flow from the demands the Liberal philosophy makes of a capitalist economy.
The Liberal mindset is not that different from the conservative, especially once the left is disappeared. If there were validity to this poll, however, it would be quite a disquieting measurement of the power of propaganda and war mongering on the population.
Unfortunately, Democrats are all too quick to listen to pollsters and strategists who have convinced them that unless they take the toughest line possible on national security, swing voters in Macomb County will regard them as wimps. That argument has been made so many times by the consultant class that Democrats now consider it gospel
The Libertarians and OWS pretty much deserve to live. I support both camps. The rest not so much. People who don’t value freedom make me sick. People who are indifferent to human suffering are sub human. Your average American is a war mongering imperialist by default. Their ignorance is no excuse.
President Obama was the perfect trojan horse for the 1% to utilize. Not only did he get a lot of self proclaimed liberals to approve of indefinite detention, drone warfare, etc., he got them to support a health care law apparently inspired by the conservative Heritage Foundation. A law whose hallmark provisions were being touted by republicans who are still politically active today (Romney, Gingrich, etc.).
The poll data clearly does not indicate anything of the sort. These results could only be interpreted from extrapolation and removal of the data set from “(ASKED OF LEANED REPUBLICANS)”.
This headline, and those of the MSM, appear to be deliberately misleading. If you Follow the Money ™ it benefits those who wish self-identified liberals to feel better about themselves, ie the Democratic Party.
Ha ha.
Socialism or your barbarism, comrade.
Your posts are sprinkled with racial references: “Uncle Toms,” “the plantation,” repeated use of “nigga.” In your view, people support or oppose Obama depending on their feelings about his African ancestry: contempt or white guilt. How simple.
You make the invalid claim that liberals became libertarians. There are important, fundamental differences between simplistic libertarians and pragmatic liberals regarding the role of government.
Libertarians are dogmatically committed to a version of minimal government, whereas liberals consider any use of government that serves the common good and delivers a desirable result to be valid.
Libertarians take the simplistic view that the “free market” is a panacea that cures all ills and always delivers the best result. Some libertarians take the absurd position that there shouldn’t even be public roads because the free market would efficiently create competitive toll roads, ignoring the facts that there can only be one road in front of any location and competing roads would be a waste of land and other resources. Also, toll roads impede travel. Liberals recognize that the free market serves many useful functions, but has its shortcomings that can be better fulfilled by a cooperative approach through government.
You may have looked deeper into the actual polling than I have. Are you saying that the pollsters did not ask respondents to identify themselves as liberal, moderate or conservative? Are you sure about that?
You see the purpose of proliferating dunderheads. Liberals make sense but they are defeated by the horde.
The collapse of the left was actually a defeat for liberals too — and they lost their focus on the ultimate source of crisis. They now drown in a cacophony of idiocy.
To clarify, I am not saying that government always serves us better than the free market. I am saying that there are purposes for both.
More Americans die from dog bites than from terrorism. Yet somehow we’re supposed to be so paralyzed with fear that we let the government take away basic constitutional rights such as due process and habeas corpus. That doesn’t make any sense at all.
Bingo…and, yes.
This hypocritical framing is all a very important part of the Grand Illusion to, once again, make voters believe that they have two, and only two, viable and distinct choices.
It is the Obama propaganda machine at work, trying to define the topic using their deceit and lies to control the media. If it’s said often enough, it becomes ‘true.’
So you and I will just have to do it – advocate for new parties and candidates, that is. Like this: the Green Party, http://www.gp.org.
What is with these people, that they never take the obvious next step? We need a campaign to bring them over. That means letters addressed to them personally (look in “Contact”, unless they provide an email address), not just comments they can ignore.
Greece is suffering because of the unrestrained capitalists of international banking and the IMF. The Greek people are the victims. As victims have less power they are so easy to dump on by people such as you.
If you all just ignore the comments of iseeitfx, he’ll go away. Don’t comment on his posts.
If the mods won’t cut him off, you can by ignoring him.
Exactly. This is yet another example of Partisan Thought Disorder. If Obama declared war on Canada the majority of Democrats would support it. The problem is our political structure, namely that the duopoly has been fully captured by the 1%. There will be no progress in the nation until the Democratic Party is SERIOUSLY threatened by a Progressive Third Party.
1. What are the demographics for the Washington Post/ABC poll – age, location, political affiliation, etc.
2. One thing that has become obvious since the election of Barack Obama (for at least some of us), just because someone states they are a member of the Democratic party does NOT mean they have “liberal beliefs”. Often people just want to “go along with the crowd” and it’s just a matter of telling them what “they believe”. This type of Washington Post poll reinforces that “liberals” should believe in drone strikes and the reduction in civil liberties. It’s propaganda.
3. What is the definition of a “liberal”? When the media and citizens have defined being “liberal” as anything left of the Rick Santorum’s of the world, does the term have any meaning politically anymore?
Very astute post Kevin. If we had any semblance of a real “democracy” and citizens actually cared about their civil rights, your post would take front and center over the propaganda poll by the Washington Post.
I think you paint with too broad a brush on libertarians – look at Greenwald the civil libertarian…I don’t hear him saying all those things you claim libertarians dogmatically want.
Distinct? Like between 12 and a dozen?
I make a distinction between civil libertarians and (political/economic) libertarians. They are two different groups with some overlap. Greenwald is a civil libertarian, but he is a political/economic liberal, not a political/economic libertarian.
That is the way I and the person I was replying to meant the word libertarian. Think of a libertarian as Ron Paul instead of Glenn Greenwald.
Precisely. Libertarianism has been redefined into economic non-regulation. I am a civil libertarian but favor government regulation of economic activities. I believe that is the design of the Constitution. Government out of private matters coupled with government control over economic exchanges is what I consider Progressivism.
even J. Edgar Hoover went to the trouble of collecting evidence of treason against Ezra Pound, he didn’t simply assassinate him as Obama would have.
I totally agree. Liberalism to them is as meaningful as the underwear they wear and change at their convenience.
Unfortunately the saying about we get the government we deserve, is a reality. I’m seeing a lot of so called liberals who hated obama policies now tell me they are going to vote for him. How pathetic.
Shorter answer: they’re sheeple and unable to think for themselves.
And that fact alone is why Obama is so dangerous. He can and has attacked our freedoms with impunity.
Actually it has revealed the term “American Idiot” to be redundant.
When I make use of terms such as ‘uncle tom’, ‘nigga’ ect…I do so to highlight the absurdity of the left’s assumed right and or ability to represent the best interest of minorities. It is my long studied and deeply held belief that the political left in fact does quite intentionally take advantage of minority voting blocks. We can disagree on that okay? It is a huge and complicated area. Our beliefs can collide as far as that goes and I do accept that you could provide for a respectable argument in support of leftist ideology somehow benefiting those who so conveniently ‘thrive’ due to the generous and benevolent ‘provisions’ afforded to minority groups.
As far as the Libertarian/progressives/conservatives crap goes; I identify as Libertarian. I believe that people ought to have as much, or as little government as they desire. My problem is with an enormous and repressive Federal government.
The Federal government should be damn nearly dismantled. State government, local government, should be defined by the individuals within each geographical area.
Individuals should be allowed to be individual and that requires that they have choices available. The Federal government is a disaster for individual choice.
The MSM has been spewing propaganda and distraction for a lot longer than the last ten years. Since the media was consolidated and ownership devolved to a few corporate entities (G.E., Disney,Murdoch, etc.) along with the expiration of the Fairness Doctrine, the amount of disinformation has increased exponentially. Their primary function is to keep us in the dark and feed us shit.
What is a liberal? You can play with the meaning of the word and adjust poll numbers to mean almost anything, and, for that matter, nothing.
Is it OK if I continue to think of a libertarian as John Stuart Mill, and have a reasonably tolerant view of the philosophy? ON EDIT: I’m getting to really hate all these labels, with everybody defining each one in their own preferred, idiosyncratic, usually biased, way. As though we could all read minds lol.
The people who fell for this were never actually Liberal. They are part of the Stupid Vote. No actual Liberals support Fascist Coward Drone strikes or Fascist Torture at Guantanamo. Liberalism and Fascism are mutually exclusive.
Yeah, the more I see the more dangerous corporate concentration appears. At least when there were separate power centers in business they tend to neutralize and check one another except in exceptional areas. Now the massive conglomerate corporations have nearly all their interests aligned. The consumption of the news business has been by far the most damaging and pretty much guaranteed us the plutocracy we now endure.
I really believe that liberals are just incurable romantics, as in
What do you call a man who has syphilis, gonorrhea and AIDS? An incurable romantic.
cue Phil Ochs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLqKXrlD1TU
“Love Me, I’m a Liberal”
I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I’d lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don’t talk about revolution
That’s going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I’m glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don’t move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can’t understand how their minds work
What’s the matter don’t they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I read New republic and Nation
I’ve learned to take every view
You know, I’ve memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I’m almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There’s no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I’ll send all the money you ask for
But don’t ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I’ve grown older and wiser
And that’s why I’m turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
Ooh, that’s gonna leave a mark lol.
Hey, that’s awesome! Thanks!
That’s fine by me. I agree that labels can mislead rather than inform. However, my comments about libertarians reflect my interactions with some of them and comments I’ve seen by them. On the other hand, I’ve read some really good essays on LewRockwell.com. Also, I have a good friend who is a Libertarian (capital L for his association with the political party) who complains that there is a definite kook factor within the LP and some of the views held by Libertarians are extreme.
I recommend “On Liberty” by John Stuart Mill if you really want to know what a libertarian is supposed to be. It’s the seminal essay on libertarianism, you can read it in less than an hour, and I bet you would agree with most of what it says. People corrupt everything over time, as you well know.
Do you agree with the conservative driven austerity policies going on in Greece? I mean, what else can they do? They are broke. It’s even happening here too. Obama has been such a disappointment to me. I live in FL and we are feeling the crunch on many conservation programs funding being cut off by the feds. Everyone is losing their house and there are NO jobs down here. All his mortgage help is not helping anyone stay in their home, what the heck is up with him? He is rich. We got scammed. He’s the 1%. I won’t vote for him again, but who do we vote for? Anyone got any advise?
Can nothing rid us of these balloon-juice racists?
*whips out Sword of Bad Omens*
THUNDER … THUNDER …
*holds up sword*
THUNDER-CENTRISTS! HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
*sudden yellow spotlight of Halperin’s face appears over DC*
*every pair of eyes on the corporate press’ payroll glow momentarily*