
Attorney General Eric Holder (photo: European Parliament)
(update below)
Attorney General Eric Holder delivered a major policy speech at Northwestern University in Chicago that laid out what he and the Obama Administration consider to be the legal justification for counterterrorism policies. Of particular significance were arguments justifying the use of lethal force to kill US citizens suspected of terrorism without charge or trial.
I attended the speech. I witnessed how the university sought to position Holder’s speech as a moment of prestige for the university. I heard the tone in Holder’s voice as he espoused his view that all the Obama Administration is doing in the “war on terror” is justified.
The speech was an act of legal and political cowardice. By going before a group of law students instead of a group of federal judges, the Obama Administration was sending a signal that the Administration does not intend to let this issue be litigated. The Administration does not want to let the issue of whether it is legal or not to target and kill US citizens abroad be decided by the courts because that may result in an outcome where one less tool was available for the “war on terrorism.”
As the director for the ACLU’s National Security Project stated, the speech was a “gesture towards additional transparency.” The gesture was naïve, designed as a substitute for releasing information, such as legal memos, which the ACLU has been seeking through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for months now.
The Administration once again displayed an unwillingness to admit the targeted killing programs of the United States present fundamental legal and moral questions. The Administration, again, refused to concede the public should be able to see the legal memos explaining why this program is lawful.
Lethal Force Against American Terror Suspects is Legal
Holder’s speech manipulatively conceded that the US must always adhere to legal principles and constitutional values. At the same time, it asserted the US has the right to employ lethal force against any person deemed a threat. While Holder said when “feasible” it is “preferable to capture suspected terrorists,” the speech indicated that could easily be overridden because, in Holder’s opinion, “government has the clear authority” and responsibility “to defend the United States through the appropriate and lawful use of lethal force.”
What makes “lethal force” lawful? All that must be in place is a “process” of “review.” This meets the constitutional requirement that all US citizens “suspected of being a senior leader of al Qaeda or associated forces” be afforded “due process.” Since the “Executive Branch regularly informs the appropriate members of Congress” about “counterterrorism activities, including the legal framework,” the targeted killing program is even more legal.
Additionally, the targeted killing operations are “national security operations.” They are not merely law enforcement operations. They are also not simply military operations. They are a hybrid. They are “national security operations,” which grants the Executive Branch carte blanche to tailor the law to provide cover for whatever acts a presidential administration may wish to justify.
The Executive Branch, according to Holder, is not required to capture terrorists and put them on trial in order to bring them to “justice” or kill them. This is because “military and civilian officials must often make real-time decisions that balance the need to act, the existence of alternative options, the possibility of collateral damage, and other judgments – all of which depend on expertise and immediate access to information that only the Executive Branch may possess in real time.” And so, when it comes to protecting national security, the “Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.”
This was the logic in the address. America is a “nation at war” against a “stateless enemy” that is “nimble and determined. That is the overriding basis for all that is legally and morally repugnant about the targeted killing programs.
In fact, Holder actually said:
Some have called such operations “assassinations.” They are not, and the use of that loaded term is misplaced. Assassinations are unlawful killings.
That was for the oldthinkers, who have not adapted to post-9/11 era of thinking.
“A State of War is Not a Blank Check”
Holder’s full explanation for why the use of deliberate and premeditated lethal force is legal consisted of the following:
This principle has long been established under both U.S. and international law. In response to the attacks perpetrated – and the continuing threat posed – by al Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces, Congress has authorized the President to use all necessary and appropriate force against those groups. Because the United States is in an armed conflict, we are authorized to take action against enemy belligerents under international law. The Constitution empowers the President to protect the nation from any imminent threat of violent attack. And international law recognizes the inherent right of national self-defense. None of this is changed by the fact that we are not in a conventional war.
The basis wholly ignores Justice Sandra Day O’Connor, who declared in the Supreme Court ruling on the Hamdi v. Rumsfeld case that “a state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation’s citizens.” This was important because it meant that “enemy combatants” do have rights and could challenge their treatment in courts. It was a significant blow to the Bush Administration, which thought an authorized use of military force gave them the power to overrule any legal requirements.
“Regression in Evolution of International and US Domestic Law”
The speech superficially invoked international law. The US does not care much for international law. International law constrains US superpower. It suggests the US must abide by a set of legal rules, which could very well subvert the sovereignty of America.
There is no way the targeted killing programs abide by international law. Philip Alston, former UN Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions, wrote a paper on the CIA’s use of a targeted killing program in September 2011. In it, he argued:
Assertions by Obama administration officials, as well as by many scholars, that these operations comply with international standards are undermined by the total absence of any forms of credible transparency or verifiable accountability. The CIA’s internal control mechanisms, including its Inspector-General, have had no discernible impact; executive control mechanisms have either not been activated at all or have ignored the issue; congressional oversight has given a ‘free pass’ to the CIA in this area; judicial review has been effectively precluded; and external oversight has been reduced to media coverage which is all too often dependent on information leaked by the CIA itself. As a result, there is no meaningful domestic accountability for a burgeoning program of international killing. This in turn means that the United States cannot possibly satisfy its obligations under international law to ensure accountability for its use of lethal force, either under [international human rights law] or [international humanitarian law]. The result is the steady undermining of the international rule of law, and the setting of legal precedents which will inevitably come back to haunt the United States before long when invoked by other states with highly problematic agendas.
Alston found the targeted killing program represented a “fundamental regression in evolution of both international law and domestic law.” It also “provided legitimacy to the increasingly vocal calls by some officials, commentators and scholars” who advocated “that the United States should formally adopt a policy of extraterritorial targeted killings that would go well beyond what is currently permitted by international law.”
If Targeted Killings Are Justified, What Can’t Be Justified?
This argument of legal justification essentially moves the practice of targeted killings one step closer to being fully institutionalized and subsequently makes it possible to justify numerous other practices regarded as clear violations of civil liberties, human rights and the law.
For example, here is Marc Thiessen of the American Enterprise Institute:
…notwithstanding the heated objections of the ACLU and the professional Left, a solid majority of American liberals support the targeted killing of terrorists—even if they are American citizens. (Of course, a majority of liberals oppose capturing terrorists alive and waterboarding them. But blowing them up with drones from the air is just fine. Go figure.) [emphasis added]….
And, here’s Bush “torture memo” author Steven Bradbury arguing against legislation that would explicitly ban the indefinite detention of Americans:
If the president says we can kill an American citizen in Yemen through the Executive Branch decision you’re an enemy combatant—I support that—why in the world couldn’t we hold them [indefinitely] for intelligence gathering? It makes no sense to give the executive power to assassinate somebody helping the enemy abroad and if they’re lucky enough to make it to the homeland all of a sudden that’s a common crime. [emphasis added]
With targeted killings, one can argue against those who have condemned previous abuses of power. One can also argue against expansions of civil liberties protections.
The bottom line is the Obama Administration has the support of the two dominant political parties in America. This further solidified the bipartisan national security consensus.
The Obama Administration has the support of US citizens. That’s why the speech was given at a law school and not on primetime television.
The Obama Administration wanted to send a message to one of the few factions of the population willing to be outspoken no matter the political cost: civil liberties groups, law professors, lawyers and other members of the justice community.
It wanted this faction to stop questioning the unprecedented use of lethal force to bring individuals to justice. It may not have worked though because the speech simply renews interest in getting the memo that says it is legal to kill Americans without charge or trial released.
Update
The ACLU’s Hina Shamsi on Democracy Now! this morning:
Problem here is that while Attorney General Holder acknowledges that the Constitution requires due process before the government takes the life of one of its own citizens, he says it is up to the executive branch alone, without judicial review, to determine what process is due and to make that decision without any oversight. And that’s simply not the case in our constitutional system of checks and balances. The public deserves a right to know what standards, evidence and criteria are used when the administration seeks to kill one of its own citizens, and the legal basis for that exercise of authority needs to be reviewed by the court because of the significant constitutional questions that are raised.
Update 2
This response to Holder’s speech from Peter van Buren, author of We Meant Well, is one of the best concise and pointed takes on the speech that I have read today. Titled “We Take Care of Our Own: Eric Holder and the End of Rights,” Van Buren writes:
Historians of the future, if they are not imprisoned for saying so, will trace the end of America’s democratic experiment to the fearful days immediately after 9/11, what Bruce Springsteen called the days of the empty sky, when frightened, small men named Bush and Cheney made the first decisions to abandon the Constitution in the name of freedom and created a new version of the security state with the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, secret prisons and sanctioned torture by the US government. They proceeded carefully, making sure that lawyers in their employ sanctioned each dark act, much as kings in old Europe used the church to justify their own actions.
Those same historians will remark from exile on the irony that such horrendous policies were not only upheld by Obama, a Nobel Peace Prize winner and professor of Constitutional law, but added to until we came to the place we sadly occupy today: the Attorney General of the United States, Eric Holder, publicly stating that the American Government may murder one of its own citizens when it wishes to do so, and that the requirements of due process enshrined in the Constitution’s Fifth Amendment, itself drawn from the Magna Carta that was the first reflowering of basic human rights since the Greeks, can be satisfied simply by a decision by that same President.
Today will thus be remembered as the day we gave up. No more clever wordplay (enhanced interrogations, “patriot” act, targeted killing, kinetic operations) but a simple declaration that the US Government will kill its own citizens when it wishes to, via a secret process we, and our victims, are not allowed to know or contest.
The use of the title of Bruce Springsteen’s new song may be ironic and a bit twisted but it is appropriate. Indeed, after yesterday’s speech, America will “take care” of its own if necessary.



133 Comments

It’s that “deemed” word that is the slippery one with regard to due process. Who deems? On what basis? With approval how far up the chain-of-command? With what for review?
I think there is a market coming in spring for T-shirts with a target on them front and back and the words “American Citizen”.
And confrontation of Rahm in Chicago becomes more important, not less with the G8 moving to Camp David.
It’s so perverse. The Executive Branch does a review of individuals who are considered to pose “imminent threats.” That’s a process. It’s “due process.” And so, the program is legal.
I suspect that second and third year law students and a good law school, who all would have had Constitutional and Criminal law by now, and their faculty, would be a tough place to argue against due process. So I wouldn’t downplay the law school audience. However, I agree the Administration does not want to see this heard by a federal court.
I think we could both be right. The law students may not have bought all of it. But, the Obama administration may have thought it would be easy to sell this to a law school audience.
My point is that given an audience of ordinary Americans, on the one hand, and an audience of law students and faculty who’ve studied Con law and Criminal law, the tougher, more skeptical audience for an argument that due process can be exercised without judicial oversight is the law school. So I doubt Holder chose the law school because he thought it a bunch of dupes.
No, the law school is primarily to send a message to the justice community that this is legal cause we say so and now leave us alone.
Holder did not take questions from the audience of law students. Does that give you an idea of what was going on?
I think Holder chose the law school as an audience because it legitimizes what he said when reported by the media. Also, Northwestern is a prestigious law school in the Midwest.
That’s correct. Holder took no questions. There was no press conference either.
It was a cheap attempt at transparency without scrutiny.
What an economical and pithy way of putting it.
Killing people with drones without due process is murder by another name.
That was stupid. He could so easily have planted Qs.
Q: General Holder, are you the best AG ever, or the VERY best AG ever?
Q: What’s the diff betw illegal & illegitimate?
A: one is a sick bird.
Who “deems”? Indeed, a good question. But we know the answer: The Deciderer in office at any time. Good luck with that.
More pressing is what are the “threats” this Deciderer can use to impose him “deeming.”
Because nothing says “prestige” quite like a weaselly and spineless bureaucrat attempting to justify the erasure of 800 years of human rights and civil liberties.
“The Executive Branch, according to Holder, is not required to capture terrorists and put them on trial in order to bring them to “justice” or kill them. This is because “military and civilian officials must often make real-time decisions that balance the need to act, the existence of alternative options, the possibility of collateral damage, and other judgments – all of which depend on expertise and immediate access to information that only the Executive Branch may possess in real time.” And so, when it comes to protecting national security, the “Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.””
This is the same ticking time bomb scenario bs that Bush the Lesser’s legal eagles used. The show 24 has been off the air for some time now but its influence on the thinking of these people still carries on.
I’m going to “side” with Kevin and TD.
This “venue” was chosen to confer easy and unquestionable “legitimacy” without any, even slight, risk of gainsay.
I would be most curious to learn what those students and professors said after the staged “presser” was over.
Frankly, it appears that too many law schools are buying into the destruction of the Rule of Law as, presumably, the profs and studentin have pleasant and lucrative Kaganeque or Sunsteinian “careers” which they are all “looking forward” to thoroughly enjoying.
I would not mind, in the slightest, were I to be proven quite, and totally, wrong in my concerns and expectations.
DW
Sent the following email to a friend who’s an alum of Barnard. Subject was: Pander season in full swing.
Funnily enough, I haven’t heard back from her.
Which Decider? Sometimes stuff gets delegated; plausible deniability and all that.
“deemed” a threat………NOT in MY COUNTRY. That is bullshit.
“It was a cheap attempt at transparency without scrutiny.”
——–
Right you are Kevin. It’s disgusting and reprehensible. If another country did this we’d be all over them like white on rice.
How does this corrupt weasel/depraved lackey expect us to fulfill the dictum of President Obama’s greatest hero, His Majesty Ronald Reagan, to “trust but verify”? Where is the verification, asswipe?
Methinks this is another example of “If the president does it it’s NOT illegal.”
Friggin Nixon, look what a mess he caused!
PTB long ago (decades) made sure they captured every law and poison ivy school. Why do you think O was sent to Harvard Law and then to adjunct at Chicago, the law school being more virulently wingnut than it’s economics dept. These things don’t happen by chance.
While we’ve been
sleepingworking they have encircled us.Fascists………..
Interesting that the criticism of Holder is pretty broad-based on the left-of-center side of the blogosphere. BooMan calls it a “pile of manure”. So far nothing substantive on dKos unless they did something yesterday. digby has an opinion and quotes from Adam Serwer and Spencer Ackerman.
Nail + head.
Behold! The A-toady General!
If we had an actual Supreme Court in place, a case could be made and this BS would not stand.
Nixon’s only mistake (besides the tape on the lock at Watergate about which I still have Qs) was outlouding it.
Didn’t think I’d EVER see somebody accuse MY country of that and be accurate in the accusation.
But… but… Lilly Ledbetter!
Peter van Buren says after yesterday it is clear “we take care of our own.”
There isn’t a better way to sum up the speech is there? Now every time I hear Springsteen’s song, it will be more ironic than he ever intended because when I hear the chorus I will be thinking of some US citizen being attacked by a drone.
Jeebus. The administration just announces assassination of US citizens legal and you’re concerned about where it was announced? Really?
Let’s see if you can focus here. This is your administration, your guy, that’s done this. What if Gingrich wins everything and assumes that power.
That doesn’t concern anyone here?
Are you all really that short sighted?
Jessalyn Radack did a diary on dKos. Nothing from the front page yet.
I agree. That “seperation of powers” thing in the constitution is kinda breakin’ down.
Our forefathers and foremothers would be verrrry disappointed in us.
If…
Yeppers. Dramatic change overnight. I noticed.
What question? Duct tape would have been my first choice too.
Drone and own rhyme.
Evidently Holder confused the September 14, 2001, Authorization for the Use of Force Resolution with the Reichstag Fire Decree.
If you’d stop drinking momentarily, you’d notice that mostly no one on this site supports O.
So while you were tilting the bottle, we went beyond the obvious and got into the fine points.
as a barnard alumna class of 19XX, this news enrages me.
wish i were a big donor, so i could threaten them with withdrawal of support.
“While we’ve been sleeping working they have encircled us.”
You’ve got that correct. NO SILENT GERMAN, here!
Don’t count on the front page of dKos saying squat about this. They’re in campaign mode, which means front-pagers can’t say anything derogatory about the Blue Team.
Don’t read a whole lot around here, do you? Of course the halo effect and the horns effect are one of your trademarks.
Where is the outrage from the NRA crowd that thinks Obama is a muslim socialist-communist Kenyan who is going to take away their guns.
I just want to know what history Holder and the Obama Administration are referring to when they say use of lethal force—targeted killings, executions or assassinations (whatever you want to call it)—has always been legal.
Can I read this history in a set of JROTC textbooks? A boxed set from Human Events? The Ministry of Truth? Where?
At least send an email to the prez of Barnard.
TD@45: ShooterPTooter hasn’t learned a thing…..nor does he plan to. He just likes to grumble about things he has no idea about. Best ignored as pointless.
Not the Ministry of Truth. Jesse would never say anything like that.
But, Dearie, it’s so much fun!:)
Might be interesting how the international community views this.
Can’t one justify the actions by Asaad in Syria under this precept???
Newcarguy: Oh, no,no,no! It’s not okay for Assad. It’s okay for Obama/Holder because we are exceptional! USA! USA! Obama/Holder – Ray! Ray! Ray!
I wish you did not have to agree with me. Sad reality it is happening again, just as it happened in Germany. This is not a partisan issue. How long till you think Americans are labeled as “terrorist” who a sick off being fucked market manipulations by oil? The US Congress did protect slaveholders who exploited people for their “ENERGY.”
Fugitive slave laws and the like did not advance the interests of slaves. It perpetuated enslavement. Like the prospect of 5.00 gasoline. Servitude….
Paramilitary death squad operations are more justifiable if America, a beacon of democracy and leader of the free world, normalizes this idea that executions without charge can be legal.
Responding to Scarecrow @3,
It’s great you agree the administration doesn’t want to see this in federal court, but what does the admistration actually think.
I’d love to see it in court, so there can be a clarification of the whole thing. To say Sandra Day O’Connor wrote about it in a decision really doesn’t impress me. I’d like to see it handled more clearly and for the al Awlaki case, for example. After all treatment of a prisoner is hardly the same as how war is waged in the field.
Which has precedence, our civil right to Life (free from being blown up by terrorists) or our right to Due Process when the person in question isn’t even in custody yet?
I’d also love to see a clarification of what our leaders can or must do to protect our Constitutional Rights when internationally the U.N. Security Council does not agree. What’s the precedence?
Bush raised a lot of questions and many linger on, especially for the public.
Nazi Germany!
This Debora Spar?
I’ve been trying to make that point, but get ignored.
Assad has no right to use force to protect his govt against armed assault, while U.S. uses force against peaceful protesters.
U.S. who slaughtered every man, woman & child in Fallujah then didn’t allow in RC, did not receive intl opprobrium.
And now U.S., slaughtereer of millions, must come to defense of poor Syrians.
Tell me irony isn’t dead.
I see. So this election we can count on the participants here staying home?
“YE CANNA BOTH JUDGE AND ACCUSER BE!”
Way back in my province’s history there was a man named Thomas Spence who was the President of Manitoba and had imposed an import tax. A shoemaker started a rumour that Spence and his buddies were drinking the proceeds.
Spence accused him of treason and had him dragged into court and as he was acting as both judge and accuser a brawl ensued and he fled for his life.
These U.S. courts? Surely you jest. Courts have moved so far beyond questioning anything exec does.
Prolly.
Woulda been nice to throw that question up to Holder to see how he’d respond.
THis is verrry troubling.
You do realize these actions are to execute a law Congress passed: the AUMF.
Nice catch. Sent the link onto my friend.
Wonder if, in a presser, Spar would give us an accurate description of the smell/taste of Blankfein’s shit. Must be an ap for that.
Well, it doesn’t happen often, and it pains me to admit it when it does lol, but I agree with you completely about this. Now, perhaps you could return the favor, and go to TBogg’s site, where I am banned for voicing my anti-Obama opinions, and make the same argument as strenuously as possible, and tell them realitychecker sent you.
Yes, we all got together at our secret safe house. None of us will vote. You should not vote either. But we are flattered that you care.
But do we know what you think? Does this or any puppet President, or the Oil Companies have the freedom to assassinate anyone who threatens lives or Oil profits?
RC@66: LOL. Thanks. I needed that!
I imagine they are polishing up a Nobel Peace Prize for Assad right now.
The speech that makes John Ashcroft jealous.
There should be much more scrutiny of this policy. It is a crime that the press is not doing more about this.
Frank33@67: Great Q. I’m waiting with bated breath for Shooter’s response. But, for sure, I’m not holding my breath! Shooter drops his load but rarerly responds to actual questions. With Breibart roasting, I don’t know who will be paying his salary for blog-disruption. Will be interesting to see if Shooter disappears once he gets the news.
I live to serve, m’Dearie lol.
How many here at FDL still plan on voting for the murderer-in-chief, I wonder…
Repulsive Progressive Hypocrisy
Your breath smells of Obama ass.
A year ago Assad was using lethal force against peaceful protesters. By your logic before the fall election in the US, …
DING DING DING!!!!!! YUP!
The Nobel Peace Prize is the Heisman Trophy of international awards.
As a liberal, I want to “prepare indictments and offer therapy” for these two lawless terrorists, Holder and Obama.
Obama has a law degree and was hired as an adjunct faculty member to teach a course on constitutional law. Adjunct faculty fall somewhere below the janitorial staff in a university’s hierarchy. He was not a Professor of Constitutional Law.
If people would get this one detail straight there would be a measurable, if tiny, improvement in the quality of my life,
Well, if you came here more often you would know the answer to that.
DARPA Cheetah Sets Speed Record for Legged Robots
Just when you thought that drones were the only thing you had to worry about.
TD@82: Would it be rude to say…….CRAP!!!
Yes, unilateral assassination of US citizens is bad.
Having the military able to arrest someone on US soil and detained indefinitely is very scary. Providing guns to drug cartels, that have killed at least one person is just nuts.
Right now, I’m not seeing much difference between Obama and Putin.
Have you ever asked me a question?
Here’s your opportunity.
Too many, friend. Way too many. And most are very smug about it.
Fuck it, THIS is the topic that is too damned important not to comment.
Thanks for the post Kevin. I think you raised several important issues, particularly WRT the location chosen for the speach. Oh, and BTW, he was supposed to take questions afterwards, but that was cancelled, or so that’s what I heard.
But by far, the most disgusting, the most hypocritical, and the most IMPORTANT issue here is so called “Democrats” (both politicians and voters) willingness to go along with this since it’s THEIR guy doing it.
Isn’t it funny how in some threads the Obama defenders rush in like a tsunami and stay and loudly defend Obama’s acts, but everytime it’s this issue…. *crickets* They support it, yet won’t defend it. And BTW, anyone that votes for him in November is supporting it too.
I have asked since the day I got here, first regarding the health care bill, then the financial reform bill, then issue after issue, those that still defend Obama how far could Obama and the Democrat go before they would stop supporting them.
And to this day, no one has even made an attempt to answer. And that’s because, as this issue clearly shows (hard to go much further than murdering your own citizens with no due process at all), that the answer is: ANYTHING.
Obama, and the Democrats can do ANYTHING, and these people will still support them. Likewise, there is a large group of folks for whom the Republicans can do ANYTHING, and they will still support them.
And that is how a country goes from the rule of law to the rule of people. And that is where the people in a democracy, ANY democracy, lose any and all of the rights they’ve ever had. Because that’s how a democracy works and is supposed to work. When a majority of people in a democracy (and in this case when you add the Dbots to the Obots you probably get a majority) support ending the rule of law, then ending the rule of law is what happens.
That is why I, and so many others, CONSTANTLY harp on those misguided folks that still want to support O and the D’s. Doing so is actually helping us move further and further toward an end to the rule of law and into fascism.
Do you, shooter, see ANY potential presidential candidate who would not embrace the power bequeathed to him or her, by Obama AND Bush?Cheney … who would NOT be more than happy to make use of what Holder has just, so very glibly, articulated?
Whom do you recommend as a candidate?
And specifically WHY do you so recommend the candidate of your choice?
Direct questions.
Got direct answers?
Cross posted at Turley blog (with apologies to any I offend):
I find it kind of ironic that it’s two black guys, Obama and Holder, who are the front men for this authoritarian, totalitarian charade that makes a mockery of liberty and law in the service of democracy. Right?
To those who support the policy based on analogies to citizens on a foreign battle field, that’s pretty clear, but does not address what’s at stake here. If the CIA and cohorts have no problem targeting overseas before, what’s the necessity to take it further at the expense of a tortured truncation of the Constitution. Because critics have actually had the temerity to challenge the principle in court?
Let’s not be naive: Obama has doubled down on Bush era excess, while lulling the gullible with smoothly crafted words.
Good on ya, OFG!!!
Telling “point”!!!
Been missing you on the threads, of late.
DW
Nope. It’s just your tax money at work.
Indeed, one honestly wonders, DonS, just where, exactly, Obama and Holder would have come “down” on the “question” of slavery, had they been free black men, in a certain era …
DW
Meant to say when you add the Dbots and Rbots together, you probably get a majority.
Well argued.
I see NO justification for this at all.
And interesting and troubling question, DW.
It’s also a crock to say this is just like the police killing a hostage taker who is pointing a gun at a hostage to prevent him from doing it.
No, that’s NOT what this is. OF COURSE the US (and every country) has the right to use lethal force on anyone that’s an imminent threat. For example, a US citizen has a shoulder fired missile and is walking up the runway of a major metropolitan airport. Of course he can be shot, droned, exploded, or any other thing without immediate due process. He is in the active process of attacking America.
But that’s NOT what this is. You can prove this simply because this has always been the case, and declaring this new is admitting that it’s more than this. In fact, in the one instance we know of where a citizen was killed, he was NOT in active process of attacking America or Americans, he was simply riding in a motor vehicle from point A to point B.
To get back to the hostage taker, this would be like shooting the hostage taker before he ever got to the scene, much less took any hostages. And if one has intelligence that a person is going to take hostages but he isn’t there yet and hasn’t started, the police don’t track him down and kill him, they track him down and attempt to arrest him.
There is no legal, moral, or any other justification for this. It’s wrong. Period.
Buddy, I am SOOOOOOOOOO with you. ((OFG))
Great comment.
I always have direct answers.
Sadly, because the 24/7 news cycle strips prospective politicians bare, we are stuck with those willing to endure it. By process of elimination I’ll vote for Romney.
The only thing I can think of to recommend Romney is his business experience.
RTFO
You ought to be a guest lecturer at every law school in this nation, OFG, your mere presence would be a moment of “prestige” for such “institutions”, whether you were “there” for five minutes or five days.
When the chief legal officer of the land, does not, clearly, know and speak to the difference between right and wrong, then one may be damned certain that neither do most professors of the law or deans of law schools.
And their students will, apparently, believe WHATEVER they are told …
DW
Yet you imply, shooter, that Romney, your “choice”, WOULD NOT behave ANY differently than Obama … or Bush, when it comes to the issue we ARE discussing, would that be correct?
News reports of interviews with Northwestern Law students shows that your last statement is false. No press report used the word “appalled”, but reading between the lines. This likely is a case in which all that noble book-larnin’ will be stamped out of them in their first two years in practice.
Then they’ll learn the one rule of successful attorneys as state by their client. “I’m not hiring you to tell me what I can’t do. I’m hiring you to tell me how to do what I want to do.”
“OF COURSE the US (and every country) has the right to use lethal force on anyone that’s an imminent threat.”
This is true. To me, it’s also a red herring to drag out all these emotionally laden examples that are tangential, at best, to really fundamental challenges to Constitutional liberties of American citizens.
Like you say, sure, if they’re right in front of you, trying to kill you, shoot ‘em up, etc., etc.
But to advocate for a principle that turns citizenship rights on it’s head in order to justify a virtually unrelated point? I guess to “them” its not unrelated, but the very essence of patriotic responsibility. Actually, pretty sickening.
Overreach and authoritarian. That old saw about having a government of laws, not of men. Guess these men figured it’s ok to just change well established law — not that I have too much doubt that Congress would agree (interesting question, that). In the best tradition of John Yoo, politically compliant “legal” opinions made to fit.
Well now, then it is the same old, same old, ain’t it, TD?
Just bigger and better …
If’n the law don’t protect money and position, then wut the hell good is it?
We’s just lookin’ forward at the new and improvalated, supercharged, turbo-powered … edition, why the sky ain’t the limit … when we gots the whole damned universe, by the proverbial short-hairs, I’d say.
;~DW
Just the same old, same old, TD.
Yessiree bobba doodle Eric dandy Holder bolder banana fana yippee yanka foodle doo!!!
If the law don’t upholder the privilege of money and position, then it ain’t worth a damned thang.
DW
I have no idea what Romney will do if he wins. Did you think Obama was going to turn out to be a non-transparent authoritarian? I didn’t. It’s obvious that you and I have no real idea of the pressures the job entails. Or of the constraints.
Ain’t “pressures”, shooter, its the “postures” that workin’ for the man, the rich men, the Masters Of The Universe, require of the ostensible Powers That Be, aka … the political class.
The rest of us, whatever we may “believe” or consider, are simply their toys, the toys of those who serve the Masters, as Adam Smith long ago called them and the political class, which includes the media, who tell the rest of what’s “what” and exhort us to endless war, mostly with each other and “the other”.
There is NOTHING honest or reasonable about ANY of what is going on, and those who “believe” otherwise are simply fooling themselves.
Still one more reason why I’m glad I didn’t vote for Obama in 2008, and why I’ll be happy to vote the Green Party candidate in 2012.
Where is the evidence the Anwar al-Awlaki posed an imminent threat of a violent attack against the United States?
The war criminals in the Obama administration can’t even satisfy their own criteria for assassination.
Then you were not paying close enough attention.
Yes, that scum-bag has been worse than I thought he’d be, but I did know he would suck. When he voted for retro-active immunity for the telecom companies (after first claiming that he’d filibuster any such provision) he let us know what he really was (and that was before the election, so people shouldn’t have any excuses).
Place holder and his obysmal boss strike out once again.
I hope the Norwegian Nobel crew are happy with their golden boy.
> The only thing I can think of to recommend Romney
> is his business experience.
His business experience is extracting money from corporations and their pension funds, replacing it with debt, and outsourcing all their jobs to China. “Vulture Capitalism.”
On foreign policy, last time around he wanted to “double Gitmo.” He has promised a war with Iran.
Romney is even worse than Obama. There can be no doubt of that.
Thank you so much, Kevin and commenters. This is hugely, awefully sad. We don’t have to choose either of these cardboard cowboys, we really don’t. The world would not improve with either one of them, so there you have it.
The world must improve; we owe it that.
It is 8 months until November. A lot can change in 8 months in politics.
Don’t call it murder or assassination. Holder doesn’t like it when people use those loaded words./s
When a psychiatrist gives a “5051″ diagnosis (involuntary
commitment,) that requires a concurring diagnosis in rapid order.
Where Mr. Holder approves the killing of an American abroad, no
questions asked, he should be required to produce the what and why
in rapid order.
Absent that, if it occurs in a decent country, their authorities
should investigate, and if wrongful, the American relatives should be
able to sue Mr. Holder’s ass.
Of, he could just make people disappear and drop them in the ocean.
Works for the mafia.
Well said. Some honor.
What you mean “we,” white man?
Yes, that’s when I heard the click as well.
“Due process does not require judicial due process.”
Fascists?
“Obama’s Kill Policy”, Jonathan Turley in Foreign Policy Magazine,
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/07/obamas-kill-policy/#more-46337
“When the applause died down after Holder’s speech, we were left with a bizarre notion of government. We have this elaborate system of courts and rights governing the prosecution and punishment of citizens. However, that entire system can be circumvented at the whim or will of the president. The president then becomes effectively the lawgiver or lifetaker for all citizens. The rest becomes a mere pretense of the rule of law.”
Au contraire, amigo, there can be plenty of doubt which is worse. I cannot see much reason to think that they would be very different from each other AT ALL. Remember that both are world class fakers.
That is what I am hoping and praying for, and counting on. This has become truly intolerable, and it scares me to see how many potentially Silent Germans there are.
Indeed, that is when all with open eyes and ears “got it.” But, we were faced with the same “lesser evil” BS then as now. Which is why we must show that we are capable of learning by rejecting the “lesser evil” argument this time around. Surely we can come up with something better as a strategy and rationale, given that the tactic has gotten us to where we are now. Dismal results.
Is this story in yoor local newspaper today, much less front page?
Shhhhhhh!
Hey BobTinKY, haven’t I seen you comment at Talk Left? (I can never get past their registration system, seems like my prior login info stymies renewal). Anyway, Jeralyn referenced the Holder speech without comment. Am I right that’s she’s another less-than-courageous, so-called “lefty”? Mayby even an Obot?
Have always greatly appreciated Turley (why I have him on The Dissenter’s blogroll).
Agree, he seems to meld a respect for law with a sensitivity to social justice, and to speak with some courage.
And thanks for your marathon efforts.
“…to defend the United States through the appropriate and lawful use of lethal force.”
Translation: Use lethal force to protect the business models of powerful corporations who buy law and pass all the risk on to the American people, who fight, die, and foot the bill? Then get raped at pump? What a deal for America!
So how much Iraqi oil has paid for the 90 billion dollar Iraq War Wolfy and Rummie???????
Please ask Mr. Turley: “Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.”
Judge, Juror, and executioner in one. Ripe for abuse? BS!