A policy speech given by Attorney General Eric Holder on Monday asserted the Executive Branch’s supposed legal authority to kill US citizens abroad without charge or trial if they are deemed to pose an “imminent threat” and be “senior operators” of al-Qaeda or a group loosely affiliated to al-Qaeda. The speech has sparked a backlash, especially since it argued that US citizens have a right under the Constitution to due process but not judicial process. Since there is a review board that makes a decision on whether to order the killing of individuals believed to be a threat, the argument is that this is a process and so, if a citizen is killed, it is okay because that citizen would have been given his or her due.
Al Jazeera English‘s “Inside Story” recorded a discussion with Jameel Jaffer, director of the American Civil Liberties Union, PJ Crowley, former State Department spokesperson and Morris Davis, former chief prosecutor at Guantanamo Bay between 2005 and 2007.
Here are a few points about what is said in this important segment.
(1) This legal argument is a foundation for the government sanctioning of murder. Davis appropriately and directly characterizes what the Obama Administration is doing:
I think what we are sanctioning here is murder. We’re sending drones overseas. The president has no authority in Yemen. I mean, the president’s authority extends to the US its territories and its possessions. But to authorise a civilian agency, the CIA, to go to Yemen with drones, fire a missile and kill American citizens is just breathtaking, I think, to a lot of us.
(2) The Obama Administration is rewriting the definition of due process much like the Bush Administration tried to redefine torture. As Jaffer says in the segment, there is an “important difference between allegations and evidence.” And, he adds, “Due process is the distinction between mere allegations and evidence.” The Administration wants us all to believe the courts have “no role to play.” They should not be involved in litigating kill lists, determining the sufficiency of evidence, etc. And, there can be no “due process” if you are just making decisions based on allegations.
(3) There is a sheer amount of cowardice and secrecy involved in the operations of the US government’s targeted killing programs. It already, before legal justifications for the program are fully understood and agreed upon, operates with a level of impunity.
The killing of Samir Khan, who was believed to be a propagandist, and Anwar al-Awlaki’s son, who was sixteen years-old and not suspected of anything “nefarious,” has not been owned up to by the Obama Administration. It will not publicly admit a CIA drone strike killed these people.
Two US citizens were killed and Jaffer is correct. It is a “sad thing when a US administration is killing its own citizens” and refuses to acknowledge it. And, even Crowley, who is mostly supportive of the legal authority being asserted, agrees that the death of these two US citizen raise “very difficult questions.”
And, again, this is all shrouded in secrecy. The Obama Administration does not want any more details to be known and that is why it will not comply with Freedom of Information Act requests for “execution memos” containing the legal justification for the targeted killing of US citizens abroad.
(4) It is not necessarily clear that this authority would not ever be asserted in the United States. Crowley says, when responding to the fact that FBI director Robert Mueller appeared to be unsure of whether he could order the assassination of an American here at home, “I would absolutely think not.” His answer comes with a tone of shock that anyone would consider this could ever be used here. But, Crowley has a lot of trust for the Obama Administration so the shock is not surprising.
With the Federal Aviation Agency (FAA) opening up US airspace to more drone use and with more and more law enforcement agencies using their own drones, how long is it, really, before we are debating whether it is okay to take out a “homegrown terrorist” if they pose an “imminent threat”?
That “ticking time bomb scenario” that Bush Administration officials liked to talk about is a powerful tool of fear and propaganda. And, that “scenario” could easily move a population to go from accepting that US citizens suspected of terror can be killed abroad to US citizens suspected of terror can be killed here.
A paramilitary squad could be called in to eliminate a target, even if there is a civilian system for trying terrorists that allows the government to give terrorists the death penalty. Politicians would have no problem building political support for such an encroachment on civil liberties. Even more importantly, opposition would be impotent in the face of the expansion of executive power because, as Davis says in the segment, the “lack of leadership on the part of the Obama Administration” has allowed the other side to “carry the narrative that these guys are the worst of the worst and whatever means are necessary to keep us safe are legitimate.”
(5) It is not clear Al-Awlaki was an “operative” or even a “senior operator” in al Qaeda. Crowley states this as clear fact, but the way policymakers characterized him until he was assassinated evolved.
Micah Zenko of the Council on Foreign Relations made this clear in October 2011:
…U.S. officials claimed that Awlaki had a much more “operational” role in AQAP after his death, than they had before. In the past two years, Awlaki had been described as “inspirational,” “charismatic,” an “effective communicator” who’s “internet presence magnifies the threat.” In May, FBI Direct Robert Mueller warned that Awlaki “has taken on a significance that he certainly did not have way back when.” Yet, most officials described him as not being intimately involved in operations, such as Leon Panetta, who testified to the Senate in June that “because he’s very computer oriented and as a result of that, really does represent the potential to try to urge others, particularly in this country, to conduct attacks here.”
After he was killed, the connections between Awlaki and terrorist plots became more specific and vivid. White House spokesperson, Jay Carney, said Awlaki was “a principal leader in al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the most operational affiliate.” A senior White House officialsaid he was “very operational, every day he was plotting, he had very unique skills.” Finally, a State Department spokesperson claimed that Awlaki was “the leader of external operations for al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula,” and “played a significant operational role” in two attempted terrorist attacks against U.S. civilian airliners…
It is way more possible that US citizens who are not senior operators of al Qaeda are killed than people trusting of the Obama Administration are willing to concede.
Americans know what they know about Al-Awlaki because of what they are told. Davis properly calls attention to the fact that the Bush Administration told us the “worst of the worst” were at Guantanamo Bay. That was wrong.
(5) Just because a country gives the US permission to kill people in their country doesn’t mean it is legal. Crowley says, in the context of Yemen, the Obama Administration obtained permission from the Yemeni government to launch operations and kill terror suspects in the country.
Davis sharply rebukes this argument:
You can’t approve murder if you start from the premise that killing another human being is murder unless there’s some legal justification. And, combatant immunity doesn’t apply cause the CIA are not combatants. Self-defense doesn’t apply because there’s no immediate threat of death or bodily harm. It’s murder. And, you can’t even with the Yemeni permission say it’s okay to come and murder.
The remark by Crowley also takes on a farcical edge, too, as he cites a cable released by WikiLeaks to make his argument. This again shows the duplicity of people, who will cite information published by WikiLeaks because it is convenient yet simultaneously castigate the organization for its operations and supposed threat to security and humanity. After all, it is not likely he’s had a come-to-Jesus moment and realized WikiLeaks isn’t so bad for the US government and the world after all.



108 Comments

The assertion by Holder is in the context of the war powers of the President. And the argument is that those war powers give the President the authority to order military force (killing) against any enemy combatant, regardless of nationality, so long as they are in a state of war against the US. The question about this argument is whether in end of hostilities makes this power go away. If for example, the “War on Terror” were officially declared over, would these powers still remain?
Now the war powers of the President have been broadly construed since Harry Truman entered the Korean War, as the Wikipedia commentary on Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution shows:
Great recap, thanks Kevin. Davis’s statement here goes to the heart of the matter.
You can’t approve murder if you start from the premise that killing another human being is murder unless there’s some legal justification. And, combatant immunity doesn’t apply cause the CIA are not combatants. Self-defense doesn’t apply because there’s no immediate threat of death or bodily harm. It’s murder.
The use of CIA pilots seems foolhardy because there’s already a controversy of whether CIA officers have combatant immunity, and it seems pretty clear they don’t. It wouldn’t be difficult to have used Air Force officers instead (its not like they’d actually have to go to Yemen), I suspect there’s more to the story on that end, like, say the Air Force brass refused to put their airmen on the hook for future murder indictments (specifically, 18 USC 1119 Foreign Murder of United States National). There’s no statute of limitations on murder. Anyone who agreed to conspire in the planning and executing of this crie also agreed to bet their life that every Attorney General for the rest of their lives will be as mendacious as Eric Holder. I’d argue that was a pretty bad bet.
Reportedly the memo was completed in June 2010 but there are press accounts that Awlaki was put on the kill list as early as December 2009. Talk about dealing from a stacked deck! The DOJ knew that if the the memo had come out as Davis (and the US Code) insist it should have, then placing Awlaki on the kill list in 2009 was itself a crime, Conspiracy to Murder (18 USC 1117). An honest Attorney General would have appointed a special prosecutor once the memo was complete (if not before). Oh well, there’s still time. Remember, no statute of limitations.
“But to authorise a civilian agency, the CIA, to go to Yemen with drones, fire a missile and kill American citizens is just breathtaking, I think, to a lot of us.”
Whose next? Some American working in a country where “Big Oil” wants that country’s oil? So we declare a local indigenous population a resistance group, a “terrorist organization,” and authorize the killing of that American, a so called “terrorist.” Judge, Jury, Executioner, in one? To ripe for eventual/inevitable abuse, if not already? Especially in some distant country.
Where have I seen this before? Story of a corporate Hitman, or America’s revolution where a King and his army did a corporation’s bidding?
Four years ago, if a law student wrote that in a Con Law final, he or she wouldn’t have passed the course.
All lies we buy. We haven’t been at war since WW 2 the last declared war everything else was an illegal invasion and occupation nothing more.
Thais is what happens when w pick and choose which parts of the constitution to obey and which to ignore.
The US Executive is presuming jurisdiction over people all over the world.
It has no such authority, nor jurisdiction. There is a extradition process for crimes.
It is committing acts of war.
What’s next, Israel Killing People it believes it should, anywhere, including in the US?
Or Iran taking similar action against people it believes ant-Iranian?
Or killing people in a country where these is no death penalty?
Trying to think of best approach to a solution regaining Constitutional rights in this area. I think you shine the light on the kernel that has to be dealt with.
I think the greatest usurpation has been that of who has the authority to declare war. There will be more and more degradation of rights as long as the president is permitted to conduct war without permission.
Very true, and we’ll have Obama and the Democrats to thank for unchecked executive power. This is Bush expanded exponentially.
I’m curious about these AQ “affiliated” groups are that they keep talking about. Could we see the list, please. Is PETA on it. What about Planned Parenthood.
And let’s not forget the concept of “material support” to Bad Terrorist Groups*: a person who contributes to a charity arm of some organization on the Bad Terrorist Groups list can get hit with criminal charges.
* As defined by the Executive Branch, with no judicial review. As opposed to Good Terrorist Groups, better known as “freedom fighters.”
Per the Fifth Amendment:
Per AG Holder:
The Fifth Amendment requires “due process of law,” not simply “due process.”
Obama’s executive-branch process may be “due” but it is not the process of law, which by definition requires involvement of the judiciary.
Do these people not understand the English language? And, let’s stop playing along with their clever wordsmithing; what’s required is “due process OF LAW.”
Thank you Kevin for an excellent synopsis.
I rue the day I voted for Obama.
It is very curious the crickets on the right about this issue.
No doubt the American Friends Service Committee is on it.
Exactly! People like Jim DeMint, from whom every other word is “freedom” or “liberty,” strangely do not seize this opportunity to criticize Obama. Do they not hate him? Or, do then not love liberty? Very strange.
FTW.
tammanytiger @ 4
wigwam @ 11
also, too.
We still talk like there’s any law or morality or anything where reason could penetrate. We still imagine that something is left of our fundamental codes of civilization at the top. E.g., much as I adore Glenn Greenwald, more and more he seems a tiny thing with books and the Constitution, trying to undo the lizard brain Fukushima/Abu Ghraib/Bankster Rapist/etc tsunami.
Shit is fucked up and bullshit!
Jameel Jaffer is a religious fanatic that has taken over the ACLU to use it to undermine the kaffir’s (that’s us) ability to fight. Jaffer doesn’t care about due process any more than any other muslim does, unless it helps islam to succeed in taking over the world. If you doubt that, take a careful look at what is going on in virtually every muslim nation. There is no care for human rights. Quite the opposite!
So Jaffer has used the ACLU to get documents released on Guantanamo detainees. That harmed the USA.
Jaffer got a visa for Tariq Ramadan, who is the primary apologist for the religion of oppression and barbarism that is islam. If you doubt that, check what Christopher Hitchens has to say.
Jaffer got the provision that allowed the FBI to get subpoenas of internet records invalidated.
Let’s get real! Anwar had the mission to overthrow the USA – because he was an evil islamist fanatic. He wanted to murder anybody he could, and he wanted to incite everyone he was able to do murder.
The constitution is not a suicide pact.
And if you doubt that Islam is evil, see what Richard Dawkins has to say about it.
One thinks that if there were evidence to that effect, it could have been brought before a judge, argued in public, and a warrant secured as the Constitution requires.
And how lovely our choice anymore is either pure sellout corporatist fascism or the same thing but with extra Taliban.
That same logic would argue for a drone strike on the anti-abortion activist Randall Terry.
Argued in public? What ridiculous rubbish.
Al Qaeda is conducting a clandestine war on us. Al Qaeda doesn’t conduct its affairs in public. Al Qaeda doesn’t give warnings. Al Qaeda isn’t interested in human rights.
You can’t fight a war that way. Years of litigation, outing of sources, would destroy any capacity to fight. Look what happened after we killed Osama bin Laden. Some idiot got hold of what should have stayed classified information and the people who helped get it done were made public and attacked. Had we been required to put all of that before a judge in a court, we never would have killed that monstrous sh$t-bag of fanaticism.
Right. Then the SEALS could be commissioned to CAPTURE these suspects when they are overseas and bring them to trial. The entire event should be video recorded so if the suspect was killed due to a firefight due to resisting arrest there is evidence of this and not just something we’re supposed to believe. If the suspect is killed while resisting arrest an independent commission should review the actions of the SEALS team.
But like another commenter remarked, this is spitting in the wind. The Military-Industrial-Media-Oil Complex owns this country and its government and the 99% are powerless to change things, especially via politics. Only radical actions will achieve anything. (I’m committed to non-violence.)
Interesting story. Got some links.
Why should US troops be conducting law enforcement operations on the soil of another sovereign state? There are extradition treaties.
The issue being discussed in this diary is “Should the United States be a government based on law?” Or will expediency and partisan politics drive our approach to law enforcement and foreign affairs?
I have no idea why the Obama Admin thinks that their campaign slogan should be, “We could gun you down in the street and no one could do anything. Not that we will, just that we could.” But it’s clear that they are passionately committed to both the slogan and the ideas.
Yeah, that’s basically my deal. If we’re just killing people we don’t like now, I have a list.
Mr. Hitches is no longer around to defend his views, but his thoughts on Islam extended to all religions.
Mr. Dawkins is still around; he would prefer you use evidewnce to back up your claims:
“The mission of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science is to support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and suffering.”
He too has a view towards religions.
Without evidence, murdering Anwar and Khan, and Anwar’s son is just that — murder.
What you are advocating is the same as killing the clerk at Kinkos that helps a walk-in customer make photocopies, under the guise of the cleark must be the propgandist for some mafia organization.
Why are we just talking about Americans? I think there is a bigger question here: the right to kill anyone abroad without due process and respect for sovereign governments. In time of war (real war), you choose the side you want to fight for, and accept the consequences. Being an American shouldn’t give you a free pass to fight for the other side in time of war. But outside of wartime, there needs to be due process no matter who you are. That’s not just American law, but international law.
Very revealing. And who would be left after such international execution by states?
The Geneva Conventions say that within wartime there must be a minimum form of due process and protections for non-combatants.
Terrorism is the last resort to reinforce the executive privilege to warfare … whose necessity is driven by the logic of capitalism.
The Holy Land Foundation
Agree. State sanctioned murder of non-US citizens is just as abominable as state sanctioned murder of US citizens.
Please spare us the JihadWatch.org propaganda.
Well it’s only a matter of time until the AFSC shows up on the list too.
How soon will it be before this administration – or some future administration – decides, for expediency sake, to just “disappear” people without announcing they are on a To Kill List? Remember the “disappeareds” under the military junta that ruled Argentina in the late 70s & early 80s? Argentines remember that era with horror and revulsion.
This “war on terror” primarily was based on the 9/11 attacks, which have yet to be properly investigated. Otherwise, there is little basis for broadly establishing or targeting an enemy under any reasonable definition of war which includes our homeland having been attacked. It is too easy to declare war instead of addressing the legitimate grievances of those who have resorted to violence because they see no recourse. The complete lack of introspection in our government and our society, and the dubious “security measures” implemented out of fear, will only perpetuate and intensify that violent reaction. The U.S. has morphed into a hideous monster by its financial and military domination. Americans may feel relatively safe at home while accepting the forfeiture of basic civil and human rights, but we are becoming pariahs throughout much of the world. This policy of state-sanctioned murder is a major stumble down the slippery slope toward fascism.
Kevin the title should read “debating weather it is legal to ASSASSINATE US citizens abroad.
Their language has been corrupted , don’t buy into their framing.
It’s the text book definition of ASSASSINATION nothing less .
We are all Militia now.
Take your Islamaphobia and shove it so far up your ass you begin to choke on your hate filled diatribe.
This defense will be unacceptable.
Warmoger, war monger or WAR Monger how ever you like to be addressed.
Nicely and economically stated. Yes it is our war of terrorism waged against anyone who would challenge capitalism.
Is that you, Steven Emerson?
You are either with us or against us.
The intent of this monstrosity lies behind what we mistake to be boast, sophism, and dissimulation. It is speaking to us but we are not hearing it clearly.
Snow day at Beck U today? Tower of Babel Theme Park closed for repairs?
Eric Holder has made a very dangerous assertion that due process is not judicial review. Thus the Executive becomes the prosecutor (making up the law in the process), the judge, the jury and the executioner.
The countries founders saw plenty of that sort of tyranny in the monarchies of Europe. They found reason enough for the checks and balances they wrote into the constitution.
Holder at the behest of the executive has cast that all aside.
How would the seemingly rather pervasive concurrence of the D’s be with a President Santorum. Or some other Reptile.
A spiral into darkness.
Just a minute, man …
;~DW
Well and truly said, Alice X.
I do not know if you are “new”, here, but I certainly appreciate your succinct and powerful comment and look forward your comments in future.
DW
Utter, fear-mongering drivel!!!
Ellen, you are spouting hateful nonsense of the most dreadful and incendiary sort, marking yourself as a agent provocateur and a shill for delusional triumphalism … that is, you contribute nothing but vile incitement to unreasoning and unreasonable fear and hatred… your comments deserve to be, and shall be, ignored.
Why is it that people like you and Rush Limbaugh are always telling the rest of us what other people think, feel, and “care.” You are talking out of your ass. You are in no position to know what Jaffer cares about, and the evidence you offer is totally irrelevant.
When it comes to the president lawyers might as well be theologians. Nobody will enforce the law against the president. Murder is murder. And Obama is a murderer. And any of you who support him are complicit in murder. Wear it with pride.
Reading all these responses, I get the feeling that some of you maybe drinking bad kool aid! Lets see if I got this right, its okay for their suicide bombers to kill and hurt innocent people, because they know where to do the most amount of collateral damage but it’s not okay for us too target these individuals and eliminate them. As far I’m concerned, if you are a known terrorist and participate in the taking of innocent lives to promote your own agenda, you have lost all human rights! As far as the ambulance chases(ACLU) are concerned, when they started out, they where like unions and did good work, but after a while they acquired they own agenda, the rest is history and they will bill you for it.
Obama Inc. and Bush/Cheney Co. fit your criteria, pJack.
As if you haven’t noticed.
This nation starts wars without justification killing millions in the case of Vietnam and many hundreds of thousands in the case of Irak, no one knows for certain.
This nation tortures and we, all of us may and can be called to account … and there is no statute of limitations for those war crimes, all committed, pJack, in your name and mine.
Put THAT in your smug ,America uber alles cap, and wear it proudly … I shall to call it, murder and mayhem and those responsible for the policies and “memos” which led to it, condoned it and manufactured it, the lies and the obscene deceit … exactly as I see them.
Henceforth, your knee-jerk jingoistic comments, like Ellen’s, deserve to be and shall be … ignored.
Is that you Robert Spencer?
Now might be an appropriate time to type that in most years, more people are killed by dogs in the U.S. than by terriss. Therefore, shouldn’t the U.S. replace dogs by terriss as man’s best friend?
I don’t know that the word “abroad” should be part of this title. Yes, some in the administration have used the word, but as Johnathan Turley pointed out (I’ll try to find the link if I can, but don’t hold your breath cause I suck at searches) the underlying language used to justify these “killings” has no such descrimination. In fact, just yesterday or the day before, Meuller was asked at a Congressional hearing whether these “killings” could occur in the homeland and if so would it be the FBI that carries them out.
His answer was a soothing “I don’t know.”
I don’t think there is anything, other than it’s only been used abroad so far, that limites this “right” to American citizens abroad.
How about this from emptywheel, OFG, might it suffice?
http://www.emptywheel.net/2012/03/08/the-answer-robert-mueller-is-yes-doj-does-believe-it-could-kill-a-citizen-in-the-us/
DW
Under those rules half or more of the people of Irish descent in the US are terrorists for supporting (send money to) the IRA.
The British will come a kill them of with Drones.
Exactly what the right wingers said when justifying torture and indefinite detention with no rights under Bush. “When you become a terrorist you forfiet your rights.”
So, let me ask, were you saying the same thing when Bush was torturing and disappearing or is it only when a D president is in office that once you become a terrorist you lose your rights.
And, one must ask, when, exactly, does one become a terrorist? When the government says they are? Really? Do you not understand why our founders wrote the Constitution in the first place??? So, a person is a murderer when the government simply says they are too???
One is a kidnapper and rapist the moment the government comes out and says “That man is a kidnapper and rapist.” Surely you would agree that we don’t want kidnappers and rapists running all over the good ‘ole USA. Surely, they lose their right to enjoy our homeland when they’re a kidnapper and rapist, right?? So, tell me, why the fuck do we have courts?? Why can’t we get rid of them, save a whole bunch of money, and agree that when the government says someone is a kidnapper and rapist, he’s a kidnapper and rapist. Lock him, throw away the key, and forget about him. No need for judges, courts, lawyers, any of that expensive crap.
That your ideal world???
You’ll understand if many of us decide to, ahm, say FUCK THAT WORLD, won’t you?
Automobiles are worse than dogs at killing.
Should drivers be shot on sight?
That will defintely do!!
Thank you!!
I hadn’t seen that yet. Thank you very kindly, sir.
Reductio ad absurdum is one of my favorite forms of argument.
The answer to your Q is that it is OK as long as you shoot white drivers too.
As well, OFG, there is this: from “Washington’s Blog” …
http://www.emptywheel.net/2012/03/08/the-answer-robert-mueller-is-yes-doj-does-believe-it-could-kill-a-citizen-in-the-us/‘
DW
Sorry, OFG, I’ll try again … technical “problems” …
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/
Scroll down …
DW
Silly me. I forgot the biggest terriss of all. I guess it’s OK to shoot every U.S. soldier on sight, as they carry out USG sponsored terrorism. Ditto CIA agents.
Nah. They are pikers compared to drivers.
Not when you consider indirect deaths, like the U.S. caused civil war in Iraq that killed a million, caused who knows how many millions refugees, and those who will die in the future of the chemical weapons U.S. used there, like the birth defects in Fallujah. And that’s in a country with only 25 million. Imagine what the U.S. could do in a much more populous country.
We already had Cafeteria Christians and now we officially have Cafeteria Constitutionalists.
Neocon Hitchens is dead. Why don’t you go have a talk with him. By the way, Al Qaida is a CIA/Saudi creation.
I’m with Hippie Joe. Someone needs to explain to me why only Americans can be murdered. Foreigners can also be killed by drones or special ops or CIA. It is wrong anywhere. Too many people are easily persuaded to give up the Constitution they have sworn to protect in order to protect it.
No room for that. Her head is blocking her colon.
Glen Ford’s comments, on this topic, at “Black Agenda Report” is also well worth a read.
http://blackagendareport.com/content/eric-holder-tortures-constitution
DW
Those two groups plus environmentalists, anti-war groups, and OWS.
DWBartoo; I don’t disagree with you, but to be like them does not make you better! Please don’t pivot yourself to much while your writing you response, the foam from your mouth might clog your nostrils.
OK, you got your vitriolic response. Now run along and brag to your buddies.
This is why only imbeciles and morons “believe” in worthless Crapstitutions: the “Rights” are ejected like the cockpit of a fighter aircraft at the first sign of trouble, while the anti-democratic structure and rules that help the %1 retain control keeps going and going like the Energizer Bunny.
OldFatGuy; I don’t disagree with some of your response, but the world you want to fuck is the one you live in.
The truth of the matter is that Obama and his messenger, Holder, have resurrected the loathsome Star Chamber proceeding and given it a fresh label they call non-judicial due process.
They can call it anything they like and they can attempt to justify it in any manner they desire, but the bottom line is that all of their efforts are bullshit. The Star Chamber by any other name is still the Star Chamber.
They are all gone, Demo. I got u guys for that!
I suspect that wee pJack is beside himself with glee, TD.
He has planted his “flag” and is “off” to bragg.
DW
Yes, that one discusses the Turley article I was referring to.
THANK YOU.
He points out how no one, from the administration, has limited it to only “abroad” even though they’ve had several opportunities to state such a thing. The fact they don’t, is pretty clear to me, means they do not think this “right” to kill Americans is only when they’re abroad, and it’s applied equally here as well.
And to those that rightfully point out those of us pointing out citizens are missing the point about the right to kill anyone, I wholeheartedly agree. I can’t imagine how any man (or woman), in ANY position of ANY authority ANYWHERE in the world has the right to say “Kill that person” and boom, that person is dead. That’s wrong for any human being, not just citizens of the USA. In fact, the Constitution is pretty clear in almost all instances when it refers to “persons” and thus, you’re right, this is blatantly unconstitutional on foriegners as well.
All that said, however, I’m going to confess and hope you’ll forgive my bias, as yes, I am a bit biased toward American citizens. I’m one, and feel like they’re one of “mine” so to speak. So, it partularly enrages me when something like this happens to an American citizen, even though it enrages me that it happens to anyone.
Hope you’ll forgive my bias and bigotry.
Succinctly well said, Mason.
It will be most interesting to hear how Obama’s staunch defenders will spin this truth for themselves and equally interesting to witness the contortions they shall have to twist themselves into in trying to frighten the rest of us into voting for this new INQUISITION, the new “holy” and endless war upon reason and humanity.
DW
TD&DW; Where both of you co-stars in the movie “BIG STAN”?
Very well said sir.
All of thier spinning and memos in the world don’t make a bit of difference. This is wrong. Period.
Anyone, including the military forces of any country (ours included), have the defend themselves from harm from terrorists, or enemy troops, or on the loose DNA regenerated dinosaurs for that matter, that’s NOT what this is.
This is putting a person on a kill list, and having that person hunted down and killed. It’s not reacting to an imminent threat and protecting yourself.
It doesn’t have to be. And we, as individuals, can either oppose that world, or shrug our shoulders and say “meh, whatev” and allow it unopposed.
I’ll be a part of the former as long as I’m kicking and breathing, and as long as that time is, I’ll also try whatever way I can to get those in the latter group to join me.
Sorry if I got under your skin.
what it REALLY means is that we should kill all the dogs….AND ALL THE AUTOMOBILES TOO!!
Thanks; No need to be sorry, you did not do anything wrong. I appreciate you clarity.
I think it will be sad to watch so many arrogant and intelligent fools commit spiritual seppuku as they frantically attempt to justify resurrecting the Star Chamber by sledgehammering square pegs into round holes.
Imagine the bad karma they will create for themselves.
Pathetic.
Sorry, the above is what post 88 should’ve said. I forgot to include the words “right to” in that post.
My concern is equally for all people, OFG, and I consider you to be among the very best … however,this vile and twisted government of ours puts us at the increasing risk, through its actions of encouraging the governments of other nations to behave with the same “justifications”, in the same brutal and mindless fashion, putting everyone on this planet at increasing and mindlessly idiotic risk at the whim of others like Obama, and Holder, and all those who trash the Constitution, due process, and the Rule of Law.
We have reached the point in human consciousness, in its interdependence and inner connectedness, where putting others at risk of undeserved death, maiming, and loss … CANNOT fail to put all of us … at precisely that same risk.
Frankly, we are ALL citizens of the world and time which we inhabit, and as we do onto others, so too, do we do onto ourselves.
Before the Masters may lay waste our lives they have, first, to convince us to lay waste our own sanity …
“WE” are ALL in this world, together … for better … or for worse, and certain “distinctions” become, daily, both more odious and more fatefully onerous.
I side with life and against the reign of death, destruction, and despair, OFG, even as I understand and do not judge your … “particular bias”.
DW
I quite agree, Mason, and as a spiritual being having a human experience, it always amazes me how much others seem to “forget” …
As you and I know, we are made of the “stuff” of the stars, and each of our lives is but the merest blink in the vast ocean of time …
And “all” we ever have to “spend” … IS that wee, brief time.
We are merely passing through, with no more actual “substance” than a butterfly or any greater gravity than a mote of dust.
Namaste
Thanks DW.
Wish I had your gift for words.
Thanks again.
Yes, as you and OFG well know, we are all citizens and caretakers of this planet, all of its sentient inhabitants, whether incarnate or excarnate, and each other because we are all the same.
That includes the lost ones like Obama.
We are the lightkeepers; our battleground is the mind and our weapons are ideas, empathy, compassion, and love.
We must never forget that.
Ah, OFG, I consider that you have quite the gift … with words, with truth, with understanding, with tolerance, with courage, and with humanity …
You are one of the “heavy hitters” … as I hope you know and realize …
Namaste
Yes … even … the lost ones …
And the surest refuge … is the heart …
And the abiding abode … is the soul …
We all ARE one … and every one … and each one … IS us.
Amen, brother.
Namaste.
I hope we meet some day and walk together through the Garden remembering . . .
Our Presidential Assassin o will stand shoulder to shoulder with george and dick in the war crime dock, in a just world.
Go tell it to the TBoggeria, where they just banned me again after (mistakenly?) allowing my comments back on the thread about Obama shooting hoops to taunt the troops. Why does that stuff keep making it onto the front page, anyway?
Do you want to live forever? (eye roll)
And here is your answer, dear DW, from a leading Obama proponent and great Constitutional thinker, TBogg hisself, from a post last Wednesday, after I referred him to the Greenwald column on this issue. My angry contributions on that thread got me banned again, a badge of honor, IMO: TBogg March 8th, 2012 at 9:56 pm
94
In response to realitychecker @ 91 (show text)
I like Glenn and read him constantly, but this is his hobby horse and I disagree with him. Constitutional theory is fine and good if you just want to sit around and theorize, but actions on the ground don’t wait for intellectual wanking.
Reply Got that, everybody? The Constitution is just “intellectual wanking” when a Dem is in office. Do ya feel stupid for not understanding that?
Well, rc, is that not what we, you and I, would expect of TBogg and the TBoggers?
Machiavellian expediency reigns supreme with that crowd … as ALL means and “ends” (as Obama may “decide”, being above the law, as He most assuredly regards himself to be) are fair gamed “realpolitk”.
A true badge of honor, indeed, your elevation to prime and banned irritant, and I congratulate on your ascension …
I’ve only “tangled” with TBogg on David Dayen’s post, that one time, and have no intention of visiting the private TBoggin club-’em-house …
I have, idly and on occasion, wondered what might happen were Mohammed bin Laith to encounter TBogg …
DW
I go there, on occasion, as a missionary, because I know there are to be found there a concentration of political savages who are bound to vote “wrong” in November and thereby cancel out a whole bunch of us who are prepared to use our votes to send a “never again” message. But it is exactly the same experience as when I would argue with righties during the Bush years, i.e., “don’t make us think about the details, we already know where we want to end up, and that is standing with our team leader.” I just hate that his work winds up on the front page every day, it’s like we are all endorsing it. I would love to see Mohammed engage there, but I think he would just get overwhelmed with junior high level rankouts. That is what they are good at there.
I thank you for your good work, rc, and I agree that the One’s ascendency DOES send a message, it being one of those things that causes me concern that FDL will be put under unrelenting pressure to declare, officially, “for” a certain other ONE … during the last erection, FDL, was more than able to NOT take either “side” of the “fence” and call it greener or better, I worry that the Lake will not be permitted to remain “neutral” on this ever more rapidly “moving” train-wreck …
The coming month shall be a test of not merely “gumption” but of patience, tolerance, and such shared “understandings” as might, possibly weather the storm.
It will NOT be a thing of beauty.
I am also rather certain that Mohammed can hold his own with the domestic gung-ho-ho crowd, having borne arms in Irak to secure his home and his country from the clutches and the rogue violence of those of very similar if not more effusively strident and “partisan”, shall we say,”convictions” which “they” were very “bad” at …
Much appreciated your willingness to “play” on wendy’s thread, rc, as I said at the time and fully well meant.
Catch you on the flipped “sides” …
DW
Definitely related: Journalist Abdulelah Haider Shaye, who reported the assassination as undoubtedly a US action that killed many women and children, was not pardoned by Saleh at the direct request of Obama (one head of state to another).
http://www.thenation.com/article/166757/why-president-obama-keeping-journalist-prison-yemen