
Glenn Greenwald
With the increasing possibility of some kind of intervention in Syria looming, a University of Chicago panel was held to unpack how liberal thought and Western power politics often are used to mask the unsavory aspects of what many usually call “humanitarian intervention.” The speakers mentioned the Arab Spring, the war in Libya and went into detail on how military intervention is employed in the name of human rights.
Each speaker on the panel was highly accomplished: Jennifer Pitts, an associate professor of political science at the University of Chicago and author of A Turn to Empire: The Rise of Imperial Liberalism in Britain and France”; M. Cherif Bassiouni, who played a lead role in the formation of the International Court of Justice and the prosecution of war crimes in Yugoslavia; Glenn Greenwald, who is known for his work as a blogger for Salon; and Tariq Ramadan, an expert on Islam and its integration and conflicts in Western society. (Ramadan was prevented from entering the United States during the Bush Administration.)
The panel took place in a magnificent chapel called the Rockefeller Chapel. I did not get the best audio of the speeches, there is echo in the audio clips here. The University of Chicago Muslim Students Association plans on posting audio of each of the speeches soon. In the meantime, here is Greenwald’s speech (and, if the echo is too much for you to tolerate, check back here in the next day or two for the audio from University of Chicago students).
LISTEN:
Beginning with the fact that there is “no cognizable legal formal definition” for “humanitarian intervention,” Greenwald made the point throughout his speech that in recent centuries there are virtually no wars that have not been cast as necessary for humanitarian reasons. Rarely has any leader said a war must be fought for “imperial ambitions.”
He made the point that the term “humanitarian intervention” is intended to make one think there are actually two types of war: ones that are fought for material or self-interest or empire and ones that are fought for the sake of humanity.
In recent history, the world has seen three clear examples of powerful countries launching wars for dominance that are said to be “humanitarian”: the Iraq War (2003), the Russia-Georgia conflict (2008) and Afghanistan (2001). Greenwald outlined aspects of these wars or conflicts that the powerful manipulated to make it seem like they were necessary for humanitarian reasons.
He proceeded to explain why he thought wars must be cast as “humanitarian” in order to be launched: (1) public support is hard to build if it doesn’t seem like a “greater cause” is being served and (2) “all but the most sociopathic leaders” need to believe the wars they are waging have a “noble cause.” He highlighted Saddam Hussein, who passionately believed what he did when Iraq invaded Kuwait was for the good of humanity.
Greenwald worked in another salient point by sharing an “acrimonious debate” he had gotten into with The Atlantic‘s Jeffrey Goldberg over the Iraq War. Goldberg had suggested that because there were Kurds in Iraq who benefited from the Iraq War, it was disingenuous to oppose the war because some good had come from the invasion. But, Greenwald countered that in every “humanitarian intervention” one can single out a group of people that benefited.
Finally, he made clear these “humanitarian interventions” are the center of attention for the most vocal advocates until they are actually launched. After that, advocates mostly tune out and ignore the carnage or wreckage that results. This is exactly what has happened with the Libya War.
If the embedded player does not work, you can also go here to listen to Greenwald’s speech.



31 Comments

Thanks for this, Kevin.
Bassiouni was really great too. But, I’m going to wait and post about what he said when U of Chicago students get their much better audio of the event posted.
A few years back The New Yorker reported in a feature story that warring parties in some African nations have committed their infamous atrocities for the purpose of gaining attention and intervention from the otherwise indifferent developed parts of the world.
Well, just to rock the boat a little, when we intervened in WWII, the effect could be said to have been humanitarian, since it either relieved, or prevented despotic totalitarianism from taking or probably taking, France, England, India, Australia, Holland, Austria, several Scandanavian countries, etc…
I admit it helped entrench dictators in some countries; most notably, Russia. But that was a clear, if cynical, trade-off, for the simple reason that if Hitler had conquered Russia, it would have been virtually impossible to defeat Nazism, especially if the Germans had succeeded at getting the bomb before we did.
Studs Terkel called it “The Good war”, and if one CAN be good, you could say that about WWII.
I’m not going to disagree.
In my college ethics classes I ask the students to write a short paper answering the following question: “How do actions which are unethical and unlawful in time of peace become considered ethical and lawful in time of war?”
I have yet to get a convincing answer.
Most people assume that peaceful efforts will fail, and sooner or later we have to fight. But the truth is that violent efforts will always fail and sooner or later we will have to make peace. But we have put some much effort into making war, we don’t know how to make peace.
“War is Peace” pseudo-intellectuals believe this to be true.
Yes. They have a safe passage corridor in Syria but the rebels would not let people use it to leave in, and no mention of this by H.Clinton, either. She’s busy lining up the ‘vendors’ for the military intervention.
I think that the framing of war as humanitarian has more to do with two things: the anti-imperialist movement after World War II that created nearly half of the new members of the United Nations and the United Nations Charter itself. This is somewhat a response to the public victory or anti-war sentiment over the past century that got imperfectly embedded in international law.
In some respects the dynamics of decision-making are not much different than the suppression of Occupy encampments for health and safety reasons.
Wow you posted this story and then went on to agree that WW11 was a good war.
WW!! like all wars was about power and control of resources. It had NOTHING to do with Hitler’s treatment of the jews. That story was retrofitted in later. If you look at all the reasons why England entered the war there was not a single mention of the jews although by then Hitler had set up segregation etc and those that could get out were getting out. In fact among the elite in the UK many were Nazi sympathizers, and this might be a shock to you, but if all Hitler had done was kill jews or worked them to death, but had not invaded other countries I am not sure we would have got involved. Or if we had a lot would have had to die before we did.
Poland was seen as the line in the sand as it was seen as a buffer for both the containment of germany and russian expansions plans. when germany and hitler signed a pact that throw the UK into a tail spin because it was not only europe they had to worry about, but more importantly the countries that were part of the great chess game were now shaky. In the UK its great “cash and resource machine” india and for UK, france and others parts of africa etc.
That is why we went to war? Power, resources, money and greed. Ask yourself this when the war ended why was Poland, the reason we went in was poland must remain independent – along with the rest of eastern europe given to a saddistic bastard Stalin. How many did he go on to kill 10 – 20 million?
Really the west had to do it it was a trade off. the US had the bomb? they dropped it on Japan, you think they could not have threatened to drop it on Stalin and Russia given what he was demanding and his nature? Really? Ask yourself why not? Why did they use it on Japan and not Russia? Who was a bigger threat? who was demanded half of europe in order to end the war? A bluff BTW as russia was broke and its people starving? Why not threaten Stalin with the bomb?
WW11 was not a good war. One final thing google how many german industrialists who supported hitler and had their own slave camps suffered little no consequences after the war. Nuremberg for most part were show trials, and the rich and powerful who had supported Hitler and used slave camps not only went on to prosper post war, but many became members of the new government. Many of hitlers barbaric scientist were allowed to come to the states and work for the US govt.
Yep real good war for some
Inter arma enim silent leges.
Maybe by getting completely out of the “humanitarian intervention” trope, we would automatically incur deleting all the wars as part of that.
Seriously, that way there might be some net benefit to humanity on the larger scale, mindful that there would also be some deserving instances which would become neglected — yet even those can end up benefitting a dictator here or there.
Bollocks.
1. Germany declared war on the US.
2. The Soviets defeated Germany, some 85-90% of German divisions were destroyed by the Red Army and that would have happened regardless of American farting around in the West.
Went to a government school, did you?
That’s not what I wrote. I am sympathetic to what tanbark said.
Good point
The arch-goal of those who hate this is to make this taboo.
For instance, those who support war need to be shunned, excommunicated, pilloried, and vilified as much as or more as if they called some one a racial epithet (for which people do get fired, etc., recall some one using the phrase “chink in the armor” when referring to the weakness of an Asian basketball player – people who bring the 4 horseman of the apocalypse down on desperate villagers are “Serious thinkers” for contrast)
Only two perhaps very minor quibbles: Poland is part of Central Europe if you’re speaking in geographic terms; the two bombs were for show and a proof of concept demonstration. Stalin told Truman he knew the US had only two bombs; the Japanese didn’t ‘surrender’ because of the bombs, they surrendered when the USSR declared war on Japan and were poised to invade.
The Japanese surrendered when the US allowed the “unconditional surrender” to accept the condition of the survival of the emperor. The strategic reason was the Soviet threat of invasion.
The use of the bomb was to preempt Soviet claims resulting from a Soviet invasion.
Everyone was playing their diplomatic game. The Soviets settled for an end to the war in the Pacific, which had the US having to expend resources on occupying Japan. The Japanese kept their emperor and avoided Soviet invasion. The US got the fiction of “unconditional surrender” and blocked Soviet expansion in the Pacific. The war ended because at the time this was an acceptable settlement to all parties.
Wars don’t start for only one reason, and wars don’t end for only one reason–especially wars that involve more than two nations.
Wars don’t start for only one reason, and wars don’t end for only one reason–especially wars that involve more than two nations.
tell me of a war that did not start for power, resources, land and money. tell me a war that did not end with the same things it was stared for being divvied up among the winners. Tell me a war where it was to the beneft of a rural farmer in uk, france etc, to leave his land and family and go fight (and probably die) some other farmers from germany over some land and resources in africa or wherever.
That is why they pass laws forcing you to join the army, and have the media and hollywood go full tilt saying it is your patriotic duty, and those against are enemies and cowards, because most would not and for good reason
You are correct. The public in neither the US nor the UK in the run-up to World War II understood nor cared about what Hitler was doing to the Jews (excepting Jews in the UK and US).
World War II was the last openly imperialist war. The German claim of space for the German people (lebensraum) and the attempt at pan-German unification through conquest of Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Poland were clearly imperialist actions on the part of Germany. The Molotov-Ribbetrop secret pact was Soviet imperial expansion into the Baltic countries and partition of Poland into its German and Slavic ethnic groups–one going to Germany, the other to the Soviet Union.
Britain and France were involved because of the direct threat of invasion but also because of the assumption that Germany would want to reclaim the colonies that it lost in World War I–Cameroons (Fr.), Tanganyika (UK), and South-West Africa (UK). And the potential threat of losing their pre-World War I colonies – India, Burma, Indochina, Hong Kong especially to Germany’s ally Japan.
The US was concerned about interruptions of trade with Europe and potential support of the UK and France–markets being as important as resources to an empire. And US concerns about its own empire, especially the Philippines. And any designs that Germany might have on Latin America.
None of this was buried in hidden agendas. It was upfront documented (and promoted) in every Life magazine. Of course it was an imperial war. Bursting with nationalistic pride that was absorbed by a public weary of news about the Depression and relief when the war was over. For most GIs in my acquaintance (my dad’s generation), it was a good war because there was a definite drama of conclusion with pretense that the US won through demanding unconditional surrender.
It was only the PTSD reaction of the US public after information finally got out in graphic descriptions of the industrial death camps that the public connected getting rid of Hitler with Nazi extermination of Jews and others. That knowledge by Americans probably was not widespread until the publication of Eugen Kogon’s The Theory and Practice of Hell, first published in 1946 but not widely read until the 1960s. That and the comparison with the Vietnam War is likely why World War II got the reputation of being the “Good War” at about that time.
I see Johnny Boy is on tv again telling us that it is not a fair fight in Syria. We need to get on over there right away to avoid any further humanitarian crisis.
Power, resources, land, and money are four reasons. And there is also markets. And resources more often than not means the resources that power and supply the military, not necessarily resources to help the population of the imperial country.
And they play out in different ways for different actors pushing for war. But those are the drivers of the conflicts, which might go on for decades without war. Wars occur when one or more, sometimes all of the belligerents misread their relative ability to assert their power—and put into play actions that trigger pre-planned responses of other belligerents.
The main line of the Cold War was one in which a hot war directly between the US and the Soviet Union never occurred. Reading histories of the military plans that both the US and the Soviet Union had makes that a very unlikely experience. Was the threat of mutual annihilation that restraining on US and Soviet leaders?
Wars end through political settlements by the belligerents. Sometimes there are no clear winners to divide the spoils of war. Sometimes war destroys that over which the belligerents are contending.
War has always been a “rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight”. War has always employed state power to impress or draft individuals into the fight. And before there was Hollywood or the MSM to hype war, there were religious institutions and religious leaders quite willing to peddle war as holy.
What has happened in the last century, and especially since the invention of nuclear weapons, is a rebellion against considering wars natural and inevitable. And a growing demand that they be discontinued as a means of large-scale social interactions.
I was there and it was amazing. Got to shake Glee and Tariqs hand.
Pitts gave a really great history overview of the term “liberal”.
All of the speakers gave context to “humanitarian intervention”.
One of the best conversations I’ve ever witnessed.
Yep I think we agree. We have run the gamut of wars being called holy to humanitarian, but all are caused by the inner workings and needs of a few and are fought by the slaves.
As for the cold war it was another scam. Its ‘threat’ allowed the continual rapid growth of the MIC, and lots of tax payer money to be sent its way. Without it those in control would have had a hard time justifying their huge budgets etc. Today, DHS, CIA and all the other agencies that have sprung up and now have incredible weapons of force can be directly linked to the hyped up hysteria over the cold war and communism. Nothing like ‘fear” to justify all kinds of ways to control the masses and rob them blind.
Funny how in the ’70′s when we started shipping all the jobs to china those in control did not mention the threat of communism in china. Why because there was money to be made and communism like the war on terror was just trumped up so as to justify stealing the wealth from the masses, and then brushed to the side with respect to china when it was seen as a source of cheap slave labor for MIC
About 2m33sec of commentary on humanitarian intervention from Rubén Blades, circa 1988:
Sure they did.
We’re still learning about these wars, and there is a lot of suppressed history and dirty little side deals, not to mention a ton of propaganda to wade through.
Some of us have bits the others don’t have.
I was reading about his today. Teddy Roosevelts extension of the Monroe doctrine-The Roosevelt Corollary, actually he flipped it on it’s head. Non intervention became imperialistic.
TR made secret pact with Japan, which ended badly and only got worse, which in turn led to their attack on Pearl Harbor.
file this under unintended consequenses.
Who really killed Arch Duke Ferdinand, which let to WW1?
Why did the allies think they had the right to take apart the Ottoman Empire?
WW2 has also been blamed on the Treaty of Versailles, humiliation and starvation brings out the Nationalists, looking for internal enemies is what failed states do.
Well, i guess we’ll have to wait to hear it all.
Mahmood Mamdani tells us:
… peace cannot be built on humanitarian intervention, which is the language of big powers. The history of colonialism should teach us that every major intervention has been justified as humanitarian, a ‘civilising mission’
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n05/mahmood-mamdani/the-politics-of-naming-genocide-civil-war-insurgency
And I came across this today which seems relevant to any discussion of humanitarianism and imperialism here in the US.
http://gowans.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/the-uss-barbarous-policy-on-iran/
Germany declared war on the U.S. after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.
You’re right about Russia gutting the German military. Which truth nothing I said, went against. All I said was we helped Stalin, which was true.
It was also true that at one point, German advance units were in the Moscow suburbs. That’s cutting it pretty fine, and all of the trucks and rathers hitty Sherman tanks (compared with the T-34, which was the best piece of armor in WWII…) didn’t hurt in making that the high point of Hitler’s invasion of Russia.
As for my education, I went to school. Period.
Something which, evidently, you did not.
But none of this changes the basic truth of Kevin’s posit that whenever Cain has gone after Abel, he practically always frames it in humanistic reasons. Most of the time, THAT is bollocks.
If you ever wanted to know how moronic, empty, and devoid of life and dignity the phrase “humanitarian intervention” is, all you gotta do is realize — with the aid of some really warped logic — Sodom and Gomorrah’s sinful citizens triggered God’s “humanitarian intervention” …
That is part of the theme of the documentary film The Crisis of Civilization
http://crisisofcivilization.com/