
(photo: Barack Obama)
Described by the New York Times as a “sloppy strike,” on December 17, 2009, a US drone launched a cruise missile carrying cluster bombs and hit al-Majalah in the Abyan province of southern Yemen. The attack targeted Saleh Mohammed al-Anbouri, who allegedly had been bringing people from different countries to train them to become members of al Qaeda. It did not only kill Anbouri but also forty-one civilians including twenty-two children and a dozen women (five who happened to be pregnant).
The attack left a “grisly scene,” according to a commission of inquiry into the attack that was setup by the Yemeni parliament. Victims had to be buried in “communal graves” because the bodies had been completely torn to pieces and were unrecognizable. Tribal leader, Sheik Saleh Ben Fareed, told journalist Jeremy Scahill that if somebody had a weak heart, they would have collapsed because goats and sheep were all over. So, too, were heads of those who had been killed. One could see the remains of children and nobody could tell which meat belonged to animals or human beings.
It is this kind of strike, the very first strike in Yemen under President Barack Obama, which Obama and his administration have sought to prevent by being more precise in their executions of terror suspects through the use of drones.
The move toward a more “pragmatic” approach to counter-terrorism that involves the use of drones is the focus of a wide-ranging story by Jo Becker and Scott Shane of the New York Times. It also is the focus of an excerpt published by Newsweek from Daniel Klaidman’s new book Kill or Capture: The War on Terror and the Soul of the Obama Presidency.
Both stories reveal key tenets of the Obama administration’s counterterrorism policy: (1) a policy seen as violating the law can be made to seem legal by shaping the law to give it proper justification (2) if it seems illegal, rewrite terminology so that the policy is now legal (3) anyone killed is likely a militant or terrorist because the US killed them (4) the president must have many options available when dealing with terror suspects so that he can appear to be pragmatic; (5) the president is willing to sign off personally on the executions because he believes he is taking a measured approach to ordering the killings and it is the moral thing to do.
The first tenet is already known because of speeches given by Attorney General Eric Holder and now-“Assassination Czar” John Brennan. The administration has sought to normalize a drone policy that is an affront to both domestic and international law because it lacks both accountability and transparency. They have built up a program that centers on extrajudicial and preemptive executions and maintained that these executions should not be subject to any sort of judicial process.
Obama’s legal expertise or experience as a constitutional lawyer, as mentioned in the New York Times story, is used to “enable” and “not constrain” the campaign against al Qaeda. For example, the execution of American cleric Anwar Al-Awlaki was “an easy one” for Obama. This is not dissimilar from the way that Bush lawyers such as Jay Bybee, William J. Haynes or John Yoo used law to craft the legal justification for “enhanced interrogation techniques” or torture.
Second, the terms can simply be rewritten. “The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, according to the New York Times, prepared a lengthy memo justifying that extraordinary step, asserting that while the Fifth Amendment’s guarantee of due process applied, it could be satisfied by internal deliberations in the executive branch.”
Though this makes the president and his staff judge, jury and executioner and defies all traditional understanding of the term due process, the “more than 100 members of the government’s sprawling national security apparatus gather” about every week. They “pore over terrorist suspects’ biographies and recommend to the president who should be the next to die.” They consider “the infeasibility of capture, the certainty of the intelligence base, the imminence of the threat.” They look through PowerPoint slides with names, aliases and life stories of these suspects and carefully make recommendations in a process that the president considers to be “judicious” enough to constitute “due process” for these suspects.
(This is also how policies of rendition, military commissions and indefinite detention have been continued. The terminology is refined to be more legal than it was when President George W. Bush was president. A “new definition” of “detention facility” that excluded “places used to hold people ‘on a short-term, transitory basis’” was established to solve the problem of having to explain to the public why there were still terror suspects being held in CIA custody abroad, even though Obama had ordered all overseas “black” prison sites to be closed.)
Third, anyone nearby a terrorist is likely a terrorist. This is perhaps one of the most significant parts of the New York Times story. President Obama uses a method for counting civilian casualties that does not “box him in.” All “military age males in a strike zone” that are found dead are considered “combatants” unless “there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent.”
The method is further explained:
Counterterrorism officials insist this approach is one of simple logic: people in an area of known terrorist activity, or found with a top Qaeda operative, are probably up to no good. “Al Qaeda is an insular, paranoid organization — innocent neighbors don’t hitchhike rides in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs,” said one official, who requested anonymity to speak about what is still a classified program.
This counting method may partly explain the official claims of extraordinarily low collateral deaths. In a speech last year Mr. Brennan, Mr. Obama’s trusted adviser, said that not a single noncombatant had been killed in a year of strikes. And in a recent interview, a senior administration official said that the number of civilians killed in drone strikes in Pakistan under Mr. Obama was in the “single digits” — and that independent counts of scores or hundreds of civilian deaths unwittingly draw on false propaganda claims by militants.
The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ) has previously exposed this “method” of counting. TBIJ reacts in an analysis, “The revelation helps explain the wide variation between credible reports of civilian deaths in Pakistan by the Bureau and others, and the CIA’s claims that it had killed no ‘non-combatants’ between May 2010 and September 2011 – and possibly later.”
Fourth, the president must be able to have his options open. If all military-age males are not likely “militants,” that restricts the number of strikes he can order on terror suspects so he has to use this method to count casualties. Additionally, the president won’t order the execution until he is in the moment. When the president was going after Anwar Al-Awlaki, according to Klaideman, he told his staff, “If there was a clear shot at the terrorist leader, even one that risked civilian deaths, he wanted to be advised of it. ‘Bring it to me and let me decide in the reality of the moment rather than in the abstract.’”
The president is “comfortable” with using lethal force on human beings. But, unlike President George W. Bush, he won’t just let anybody be waterboarded or subjected to rendition or denied habeas corpus or killed away from the battlefield. He wants to make these kinds of decisions on a case-by-case basis.
It is Obama’s confidence that he is taking a measured approach that weighs all the options that gives him the confidence to be executioner-in-chief. He is not merciless. It is like Russian roulette. Sometimes strikes will be waived off because there are family members. Sometimes, like in the case of Baitullah Mehsud, strikes will not be called off because the US can take the shot and no longer have to worry about a target.
The key is that all of this gives President Barack Obama the cover to argue that it is not dragging the US into regional conflicts. By all accounts, the Obama administration is now waging a war against people they can consider to be a part of an al Qaeda affiliated group because, as one unnamed senior official put it, “these people are murderous thugs, and we are not going to stand idly by and allow these massacres to take place.” But, what happens as mission creep occurs and the administration begins to strike at people who aren’t so-called al Qaeda militants but are actually rebels challenging the client regime of Abd Rabbuh Mansur Al-Hadi, the recently “elected” president who managed to win the presidency largely because nobody was running against him. (I expect this to be part of the focus of the FRONTLINE documentary on Al Qaeda in Yemen that is airing tonight.)
The use of drones greatly exacerbates the problem of terrorism in Pakistan. As Dr. Amna Buttar, a Pakistan parliamentary member describes:
In Lahore alone, I think there have been more than 30 terrorist-mediated bombings. And it happens – there is a drone attack and then there is a terrorist-mediated attack. Our markets, our hotels, our restaurants, our schools, our railway stations. Just two weeks ago there was an attack on railway station. We have to think of these victims. We have to think of 190 million whose lives have been made living hell because of this war on terror and these terror attacks and these remote-controlled killings.
Neither reality matters to the Obama administration because it is convinced that the “war on terrorism” is right and just and the killing of people must be carried out whenever the administration decides to kill people so that “terrorism” can be effectively fought. And, the expanded use of flying killer robots is supposedly a departure from the muscular and unilateral cowboy foreign policy of George W. Bush, as it is more precise and does not involve invading countries. This is why there is a scant amount of outrage from Democratic Party supporters/voters. In reality, however, what Obama is doing is not much different.
The use of drones has a destabilizing effect on countries just like military occupations. The presence of drones and the inevitable killing of civilians push people to fight back against the United States. The drones target the same group of people with the same flawed intelligence that Bush used to render, torture and imprison hundreds of innocent people in Guantanamo Bay. It all still relies on the doctrine of preemption — this idea that if there is a 1% chance that someone poses a threat that person should be targeted.
The likelihood of people who are innocent being eliminated is amplified by the fact that it is the president, who is making the decision. His credibility, his integrity and his re-election and ability to get things done is dependent on not making a mistake and letting someone go that just might pose a threat later on down the road. Someone with that sort of emotional stake in deciding whether a suspect is executed should not be considered a fair arbiter of justice.
In that respect, the preemptive drone warfare in Yemen, Pakistan and Somalia is just as bad as the preemptive invasion of Iraq. The people of Iraq were violated all at once when they became an occupied country. They lived in fear of being bombed or subjected to night raids where they would be sent to a prison and tortured. They lived in fear of suicide bombers that wanted to attack US personnel. They still live in fear because a large amount of US personnel remains in the country.
Fast forward. Now, under Obama the people of Yemen and Pakistan face similar terror. The key difference is that US soldiers do not come in the night to violate their home and take family members away. They also cannot get used to a US military presence. Instead, they are reminded that the US is conducting operations inside their country every time another compound is hit and people are killed. They also hear robots buzzing around in the air searching for a target, which fuels fear over whether they might be next because who knows what it takes exactly for one to end up on a list of people the US government thinks might be associated or linked to a group that is thought to be connected to Al Qaeda.



107 Comments

Thanks for documenting the the logical and moral slippery slope this sort of militarized pragmatism creates for a President.
Why does it never occur to Presidents (except Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs) to question the accuracy of the intelligence in cases like these. It is all too easy for sources to fabricate, settle old scores, or eliminate political enemies by playing the US CIA. Cheney’s “shady characters” turn out over and over to be shady indeed.
And this fact escapes the “pragmatists” in the White House. As does the concept of “blowback”.
And once again, whyever would the most expensive military want to make war cheaper for its adversaries (who now can move quickly on drone technology).
Nuclear war was obsolete with the first strike on Hiroshima. Conventional war has proved over 65 years to be obsolete. Why not just make all war obsolete.
Silly question. All Presidents after JFK have known that if they question the military-industrial complex, they will be assassinated like JFK.
When Hillary Clinton suggested elections for Egypt, I warned the Egyptian revolutionaries I was in contact with online that elections would only provide a civilian cover for a military-run government like we have here in the US. That turned out to be true.
More sinister is that the military itself doesn’t make policy, it is a tool of the private multinational corporations that created the policy-making bodies, and which made policy to benefit corporate rather than national interests. It is only recently, as the US economy has begun to decline, that people have started to realize that corporate interests and US interests are not one and the same. The reason that corporations, including defense contractors, spend billions of dollars funding elections, is because our government is run for their benefit, not ours.
There was no doubt in 2008 that the results of the Presidential election would be more war and more bailouts. The choice was between the only two candidates with any chance of winning, who were both pro-war and pro-bailout. That is not a choice and this is not a democracy.
I should have stopped voting in 2000, when the Supreme Court announced that the popular vote didn’t have to be counted. It took me until 2006 to figure out that an uncounted vote is the same as no vote at all, and that if the results of an election, war and bailouts, are known before the election is held, it is not really an election. Obama can kill anyone he wants, including me, but he does not have my personal consent of the governed, nor does anyone in this government. After a lifetime of mistaking a vote for a voice, I have withdrawn my consent and will no longer delegate war powers to a government that abuses them. I don’t vote and my conscience is clear. And until and unless we have the right to have our votes counted in a way that is verifiable, and can vote directly on issues or at least have a way to force our representatives to represent us, I will not consider voting again.
What about you? Do you oppose war but continue to vote to delegate war powers to a government based on a war economy? If so, have you ever considered that it might be a tad self-defeating?
O loves to play with his joy stick.
Ah yes, I too remember Barack Obama singing “bomb bomb bomb, bomb-bomb Iran.”
Other than that, I appreciate you giving voice to under-served and disillusioned 16 to 22 year-old Holden Caulfield demographic.
And yet many of those reading this article will still vote for and even support Obama for 2012.
By the way, you all are as complicit in every single one of the deaths of these innocent civilians as the candidate you are going to support. You are are responsible for the future deaths that are coming under him too.
Bull shit.
Citizens of a country are in no way complicit with disgusting acts of the dictators who direct them.
Don’t understand the reference.
It was McCain who wanted to bomb bomb bomb Iran in 2008, no?
How many of those reading this article will dutifully pay their taxes providing the equipment that is responsible for the deaths of these innocent civilians…and the future deaths that are coming under him (and future Presidents) too? Or take actions of commission or omission that enable the war machine?
The idea that there are easy ways to escape moral judgments just by voting a certain way in an election makes light of the difficulties of living a moral life anywhere, especially in 21st century America.
It ain’t that easy, and no one really gets off the hook. Tragic, isn’t it?
Yes, I was questioning “giving voice to under-served and disillusioned 16 to 22 year-old Holden Caulfield demographic.”
Every demo of 99ers is underserved & disillusioned.
During the GWB administration I didn’t think anything could engender more shame and disgust than their lies and criminal acts.
Then came Obama.
I sincerely hope there really is a hell, so these bastards can burn for eternity. Because I doubt that any of the war criminals and murderers of the last two administrations will ever pay for their crimes.
1%ers rarely pay for anything.
Kill all of them. That was Hitler’s policy, and it worked for a while, until the Russian killees got wise. We know how that turned out. This is idiotic, and beyond immoral. There will be hell to pay, but it won’t Obama and his very photogenic family that will be paying it.
It’s a learning process that has (unfortunately) continually to be relearned. Obama has been over his head since he got elected. We should have known that. Damn us all for supporting him (I know that a lot of people here–looking at you, Ecahn, god bless your soul–didn’t).
We are all good Germans. We will pay our taxes. The only thing we have now, and you participated, is OWS. We live in a plebiscitary dictatorship. It is not a new form of government, and usually doesn’t last. In France, where they were lucky, it eventuated in the Third Republic, which all things considered was pretty good despite the financial crimes of the 1880s, and the final disgrace of 1940.
What makes you think he’s over his head? Things are going great for everybody he cares about. It’s hardly his fault that the teabaggers sabotaged his grand bargain to sell out social security and Medicare. Maybe he’ll have better luck if he gets a 2nd term.
This notion that he would have done more for “his base” if only he were more competent seems to be the last delusion to die.
I was thinking this afternoon that we will all live (short of having a car accident) to see a prominent American diplomat, general, or politician, taken out by a drone attack. Once the technology is out there, and it has to be, general staff quarters in foreign places like Pakistan, Malaysia, and various parts of Africa in which we are interested, will be sitting ducks. One or two of these will bring back the mutual assured destruction equilibrium. The MOTU really don’t care all that much if whole populations are destroyed, but they don’t like to see their own targeted.
So, Mitt; now there is a guy who’ll put an end to the military-industrial complex.
Your comment wins the thread, especially
Obama has little actual agency in our orgiastic corporate murder machine. He’s just the sexy dame paid to pose with the car in the commercial.
And Tbogg’s oh-so-smart putdowns are really getting threadbare.
It’s just my judgment. He never did real politics. He was pulled out from the crowd by Kerry and other operatives because he gave a good speech. He won the Illinois election when his Republican opponent collapsed in a sex scandal. If you recall, he wanted his wife to participate in group sex (it was in the divorce proceedings he tried, but failed to suppress during the Senatorial campaign) Otherwise the Thug would have won. Any democrat could have beat McCain in 2008. Obama is not an independent operator here. He might have thought he was, but people who are smarter than he is are using him. If he’d been seasoned the way Truman was, he’d know better.
I’m not disputing the fact that the guy is a moral black spot. I’m just trying to be generous here. His wife must be ashamed of him, but maybe I’m wrong about that, too.
Scotch on the rocks?
. . . which is why I’ve always been a proponent of the form of warfare Sir Thomas More attributed to the Utopians. If anyone went to war with them, they announced huge rewards for the assassinations of the leaders of the enemy country. Countries didn’t go to war with them.
You are so naive.
O was selected by CIA via his parents and knows perfectly well what he’s doing, having been well trained.
Well, at least as badly as CIA can train anyone.
A double?
Welcome back!
Personally, he should send them to Angry Black Lady over at Raw Story. They will get a much better response there than here.
Bottom’s up.
“You are so naive.”
My mother always told me, if you can’t say something nice about somebody else, don’t say anything.
Military owns 15-30% of Egyptian economy.
Alice Roosevelt Longworth said “If you can’t say anything nice about anyone, come sit by me.”
Not to worry. Obama has the drones all lined up and ready to fly. Whether or not he’s reelected, I’m sure he and the lame ass congress will start the dismantling of our miserable social safety net on 11/05.
Still, it’s amazing how often he gets what he wants. He promised big pharma no price negotiations and health insurers no public option. He delivered. His assault on civil liberties* got through with virtually no opposition from the left except for a couple of us f@cking retards.
Face it. He’s just not that into you.
*If I may be allowed a brief indulgence, the man is not a constitutional lawyer, still less a professor of constitutional law. He’s a hack with a legal degree with very little experience who was hired as an adjunct professor to teach a constitutional law course. Adjunct faculty are one step below custodians, who, at least sometimes get health benefits. (Knut this refers to the comment in the diary–not your comments.)
Tis what happens when they don’t require a revolving door. Check out the figures for the Chinese economy. What proportion does the PRA own as various military units?
Top 3 in Chinese in parliament are wealthier than everyone, added together, inside the beltway.
I took a flyer on him because he could speak well, and I thought he could get the people through a rough spot, like FDR did. I was wrong. He could be an principal here. I think he is an agent, but as the philosopher William James said, it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference if the outcome is the same.
OMG! They’re already more democratic than we are. Maybe they should liberate us.
If a field officer had ordered an offensive artillery strike on a single, targeted individual, and it then turned out that 40 civilians were killed, the possibility exists that the officer who gave that order would be under some form of investigation.
In drone strikes, the officer who gives the order is 7,000 miles away, and the way the system is set up, with built-in problems in targeting and intelligence, by their nature the strikes will always have these problems and the only accountability points to the man at the top.
The intelligence sourcing problem is systemic.
Your conclusion about how that escalates responsibility is on target.
> Ah yes, I too remember Barack Obama singing “bomb
> bomb bomb, bomb-bomb Iran.”
The phrase you are attempting to refute was “who were both pro-war,” not “who were both pro-war with Iran.” Perhaps you should get your family members to comment — I hear (over and over, from you) that they’re “real intellectuals.”
Other than that, I appreciate you giving voice to the under-served and disillusioned 12- to 122-year-old asswipe demographic of Obama apologists.
In Iraq field officers ordered white phosphorus shells fired into building complexes in response to sniper fire. It’s not clear that any thought was given to the number of innocents that might also be present. Officers were not under investigation.
Let’s be clear. Drones are not a way of avoiding responsibility. They are a way to destroy without any risk to American lives. Enough U.S. fatalities might lead to a form of accountability.
I’m sure you’re proud of your “hero” i.e. sociopath.
I have a law degree and I doubt that Obama took any more constitutional law courses courses in law school than I did. He is no more a constitutional scholar than any lawyer. He knows more than a layman, but that’s about it.
Not in defense of Obama, but the issue of adjunct faculty is a festering sore. It is the casual labor-ization of academia. It does not mean at all that they are less qualified than regular faculty.
(Psst — Holden narrated his story from a sanatarium. Be gentle.)
You people don’t seem to appreciate the fact that President Obama likes to kill innocent men, women and children because he’s a family man.
Holden Caulfield is the protagonist in The Catcher in The Rye. In the book, we appreciate Holden’s thoughtful musings and his quirky world-view. Until…in the end we discover that he has been musing from a mental hospital… and…. he had murdered his lovely little sister he’d admired(parents, too, IIRC).
The CIA plants the screwy book on all the kooks they frame.
“It is this kind of strike, the very first strike in Yemen under President Barack Obama, which Obama and his administration have sought to prevent by being more precise in their executions of terror suspects through the use of drones.”
“More precise”?! Perhaps less “sloppy”?! Considering that the whole point of cluster munitions is imprecision, the Obama administration doesn’t have to far to go chalk up another improvement over George W. Or . . . ?
“Both stories reveal key tenets of the Obama administration’s counterterrorism policy: (1) a policy seen as violating the law can be made to seem legal by shaping the law to give it proper justification (2) if it seems illegal, rewrite terminology so that the policy is now legal (3) anyone killed is likely a militant or terrorist because the US killed them (4) the president must have many options available when dealing with terror suspects so that he can appear to be pragmatic; (5) the president is willing to sign off personally on the executions because he believes he is taking a measured approach to ordering the killings and it is the moral thing to do.”
“The administration has sought to normalize a drone policy that is an affront to both domestic and international law because it lacks both accountability and transparency. They have built up a program that centers on extrajudicial and preemptive executions and maintained that these executions should not be subject to any sort of judicial process.”
Dubya, is that you? Oh, I’m sorry. It’s your “lesser evil,” good-cop successor, the Charles Whitman to your Joe Ball.
Yes, that’s why I used the word “possibility”. Yet on rare occasion a few grunts on the ground do get charged with some violation of the law. No one will ever be charged for a drone strike gone bad. “Gone bad” is a feature of the drone system. That was the point I was trying to make.
I’ve been there. I agree with you about the exploitation. And no slight is intended. But adjunct faculty have no time for research and no time to acquire special expertise in a subject.
Having been both a tenure track faculty member and an adjunct, I still struggle with the knowledge of how much less I gave my students as an adjunct in spite of an honest effort in the time available.
I’ve repeatedly seen people attribute a knowledge to Obama that he could not possibly have. You expressed my point better than I did. Thank you.
Both the NYT and Newsweek stories amount to this: The US President is the Law and at the same time above it.
Killing humanbeings who run afoul of WashingtonDC’s imperial whims and desires based/not based on actual,proven conduct but what appears to be done on piled up suspicions or arbitrary drawn conclusions is OK as long as it is WashingtonDC doing it.
Barack Obama is killing lots of humanbeings and is evidently very wired into who gets a drone visit and the when/where parts of these killings.
Reportedly Barack Obama is seen as the “final moral authority” on who gets moved from the Suspect List to the Made Dead/Seriously Very Harmed List.
The Obama WH appears to have moved off and away from capture and the GITMO dilemma Bush/Cheney WH became enmeshed/convoluted around and just goes with outright killing of those it suspects with attendant human collateral death dealing given American Imperial Right Of Way because Americans only kill who have/had it coming. Those dead innocents and chidren? Killed because an American who is POTUS let/lets it happen to them. But Hell On Wings Of A Drone if anyone did/does same to an American,American family or POTUS.
If/should Mitt Romney wins the WH in November 2012 and then during 2013 or beyond towards 2016 just continues doing what Barack Obama has now cast a template for doing it surely will be instructive to see how fast those who condone these POTUS Obama killings of innocents and children being Obama is a D flipflop and proceed to oppose/condemn/curse POTUS Romney(R) for doing so. Expect to see lots of whiplash suffering Obots/Dbots.
Meanwhile the Americans having largely established “general rules and practices” for using drones and doing with drones what drones do will be in no position to claim any high ground when The Drones Come To America and do to Americans what Americans have been doing with killer drones to others for years.
Americans did not maintain Atomic Bomb exclusive power to have,hold and drop post WW2 for very long. Expect the same with the Power of Drones. In fact drone tech will prove far more capable and deadly based on ease of making replicas based on reverse engineering tactics. Contrary to what Americans might like to think lots of humanbeings around the planet are brown skinned,Muslim and don’t like being made dead because an American POTUS and the American Imperial Will this POTUS fronts for said it was/is OK to do death dealing being only Americans bleed red and are truly human.
Should Americans be wary of these drone death dealings or human flown aircraft doing “precision” bomb/missile “placements” being the victims families,loved ones and friends may apply blanket guilty verdicts just as Americans demonstrate so often to all Americans? It does come down to how would your loved ones,your family and friends feel if you were killed by the leader of another nation based on that leaders compiled power of say and OK? One could/can predict how Americans would react. See 9/12/2001.
When we let G.W.Bush or B.H.Obama kill humanbeings around the planet in our name that is being done in our name. The Good Germans found out how that comes around post WW2. Nazi shame washed over all of Germany. Americans were very willing to cast the shame and blame on Germany and the Germans. What? We Americans get the American Exceptionalism Pardon?
You probably mean with Adolph’s Meat Tenderizer. String manufacturers got huge orders when Truman took office, the ones attached to his shoulders and the one pulling his mouth got worn to shreds every week.
Don’t you love the film clip showing him laughing it up before he goes on the air to announce the bombing of Hiroshima?
o loves his drone strikes plain and simple.
They sat and watched the assassination of osama, A real time snuff film he ordered. how sick is that then go eat dinner?
This is the insane asylum we live in embracing death over life.
Good night and good luck. The disappearances are next, if you follow these types of scrips , except of course Tbogg
ABL, TBagg, Randi Rhodes, and all other Very Serious PragProgs understand what you don’t: Sometimes it is necessary to turn a 7-year-old girl into a fine red mist in order to preserve the right to speak out in favor of President Obama no matter what he does. Oh — sadly necessary. Yeah, that’s the ticket!
I won’t speak out for Obama here, since I don’t intend to vote for either of these great candidates as I live in a very red state. Nuff said on that.
But does anyone here seriously think that Pres Mitt will not do the same thing, especially now that its been found to be “acceptable”? Mitt has said that any Pres would have done exactly what Obama did in getting Osama. Do we think he won’t pull the trigger?
No one likes this shit. It is illegal and immoral. But this is the system we live in. How do we change it is the real question.
> But does anyone here seriously think that Pres Mitt will
> not do the same thing
I think he’d try to do the same things, and maybe worse.
I suspect that intelligence is not questioned because outrageous claims of impending doom work favorably toward accruing more power to the WH . . . ?
“And once again, whyever would the most expensive military want to make war cheaper for its adversaries (who now can move quickly on drone technology).”
The need for perpetual war demands this efficiency . . . ? If the only way to make war on the US was to compete at its level of expenditure, the pool of potential–and essential–US enemies would be very small.
Well put.
Two options. One, bring a suit to the Supreme Court so it can be decided that it’s perfectly legal and as moral as the justices who decide it, or two, hope for a JCOS mutiny, coup, and temporary junta.
I will wait for that. Sure gonna happen fast.
Presently the US still abides by the UN (and Geneva Conventions) prohibitions against deploying certain kinds of weaponry. What the US has but hasn’t used is probably classified beyond most of our imaginations.
Me too. I think he and his buddies Johnny Boy and Sincere Lindsay will bomb, bomb, bomb.
“Citizens of a country are in no way complicit with disgusting acts of the dictators who direct them.”
Why not? “In no way”?
Well, if you’re standing on the corner and you see an assault taking place but don’t act to stop it or prevent injury, you can’t be prosecuted for making it happen or helping it lead to injury or worse. But if you yell to the attacker to kill the victim or kick the victim harder and such, then you’d be complicit, sorta.
I am not sure why some posters here seem against Tblog. He is the man, Obama is the second coming, and anyone who dares to question O is deep down a racist. Of course if you are black and not an O fan then you have been brainwashed by white propaganda. So all together now
Drones are good
Obamacare even better and will soon be offered to those attacked by drones
NDDA is to protect our freedoms
Prosecuting whistleblowers is to stop terrorists
Not prosecuting bankers is to show those terrorists we will not negotiate
40 million on food stamps is a lot of change and O promises to deliver more
Defending the right that people arrested for anything and jailed can be striped naked and forced to spread their butt cheeks is what defending democracy means
Arresting shutting down sellers of raw milk or medical pot is to let people know we uphold the rule of law
Ra Ra ra
I think german citizens were blamed for Hitler, but maybe I just rad that wrong
again tell that to the germans who stood by and watched Hitler and his crew. Not doing anything is complicit regardless of what you tell yourself
Maybe, I don’t know. Jews, Communists, Gypsies also stood and watched, or ran for cover. Would you say they were complicit also?
Ha! Best articulation of this phenomenon I’ve read in awhile. Nice.
What if, instead of standing passively and innocently on the corner, the very quality of one’s life depended on the attacker doing violence to the victim?
actually quite a lot of gypsies were also killed. can’t remember the number but it was quite staggering. I can’t remember who said it but something like they came for x I was not x so i did nothing and so on. Also stoynickzni (sp) said when Stalin was at the height of his reign of terror and came knocking and pulled people from their beds at night had neighbors stood up and not hid that maybe he would have been stopped. Not right away but a concerted push back would eventually stopped him.
So you decide
Good question, though I didn’t say or suggest “passively and innocently” You’re applying a William James hypothesis about moral behavior (which Ursula K. Le Guin turned into her story “The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas”.
What if? Walk away from the society and don’t stop walking.
Complicity is active participation, although I realize that it has been used metaphorically and finally meaning little more than not acting.
As for mswinkle’s hard line: If Bush, Cheney, Kissinger, et al., are tried, convicted, and sent to prison for war crimes, I wonder if mswrinkle would surrender to the authorities and confess to complicity and expect to serve prison time.
You’re using ‘complicit’ as a metaphor in your commentaries (but so do most commentators today). It’s a term of art in law and means active participation.
To: tbogg, the loyal demozombie apologist
I know this is difficult for you to wind your partisan infested mind around, but it’s not an either or becoz you don’t have to vote for either one of these lowlife mfers.
And, if by some chance, you have some quixotic notion that you are saving the world from a romney presidency as you go to the polls, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that your one vote is going to decide who the next president is and you’ll know well in advance if the race in your state is going to be close. And even then …
Z
Link for Ursula K. Le Guin’s (superb) “The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas” – Warning to Adobe victims: it’s a PDF.
Speaking of Germans, there’s a great expression in German that I think fits this issue (not only does the language have a word for everything, apparently is has a phrase for everything as well): Dreck am Stecken. One can’t go out into the wide, wide world without getting a little dirt stuck on them. Or to put it more simply, no one is innocent. To what degree we have agency, what power we have, what “dreck” we are comfortable living with are the difficult, relative, real life struggles that exist between the binary ends of Guilty and Innocent that we concoct to simplify the world.
If the current US wars against nations in the Middle East are the hegemonic resources wars of an empire, what culpability do the citizens of that empire have who continue to consume 30%-40% of the world’s resources? Where is the articulation and ownership of the domestic ethical link between over-consumption and war?
Re: “Not doing anything is complicit regardless of what you tell yourself.” If you liked the movie, you might like this excellent article, “Pacifism as Ideological Complicity in The Big Lebowski” by Todd A. Comer http://reconstruction.eserver.org/073/comer.shtml
Where does the quotation come from?
In answer to your question, NO. I was very vocal and active about the cabal and Iraq. Lost a lot of so called friends because of it and was laughed at and dismissed as a nut. So NO is my answer
These are “drone murders” not “executions” and are evidence that the USG knows no moral, ethical or legal limits. It’s a twist on the “build it and they will come”. Build the weapons and they will use it. So far only one exception: nuclear. And we can only say “so far” to that.
Re your last para:
Ha! What a great, subversive, Yippie-esque act it would be for a whole passel of regular US citizens to turn themselves in for war crimes related to torture, assassination, cluster bombs, etc. “We thought these acts would keep us safe, Your Honor.”
Outstanding! Thanks for the link. Appreciated.
Not one of Le Guin’s better efforts. I think the Earthsea trilogy is brilliant, wonderful, but after that, she went the way of a lot of writers who do their best work in a short, incandescent burst.
Okay, but I didn’t ask any question, I merely wondered.
)
Glad you enjoyed it.
You forgot the ‘OT’. Nonetheless, she liked the story herself.
Indeed. Murder is a far more accurate, honest word.
Nuclear is the only exception? The Japanese beg to differ.
Oh, I haven’t had a chance to read it yet (I’ll save it for breakfast tomorrow). I was just thanking you for your thoughtful consideration.
Not OT. You made the reference and I responded.
you do more than that. you post questions and then links to long winded debates as to what it means, how can it be interpreted. well why you wonder and show off you clever deep thinking mind some of us know standing on a street corner and watching a child or anyone being beaten is complicit
‘Clever’ is applied to horses or to perceived inferiors, which I admit to being. You shouldn’t treat your inferiors with enmity, and I’m surprised you haven’t learned that.
Ohh and one last thing as you ‘wonder”and pass bak and forth links to intellectual masturbation articles on what does “is” mean there are serious DNS type red alerts screaming in the financial markets. So I hope as you wonder you do not have your nest egg, your ability to ride out the shit storm coming tied into your bank statements, financial statements, 401k plans and so on, because when it hits you will go from no longer wondering to outright bloody panic. Look forward to you posting some link on that assuming you have the time to
LOL you are the one hiding behind nuances and links to support it to show just how clever you are. As i said good luck with that
What??? I posted one link to a short science-fiction story. If you clicked on it and it sent you to whatever you’re claiming you found, you’ve got some computer or server problems.
“The Dispossessed” is a superb novel of a planet which has implemented a working system of anarchy.
ah, just another fascist bastid in blackface. equality rears its ugly head.
I can see some justification for killing “terrorists;” they by definition use violence against civilians. But why is it okay to kill “militants”? By definition a militant is someone who vigorously attempts to cause change. Tea Party types are militant. So was Martin Luther King. So are the Occupiers. In fact, in 2008 Barack Obama promised that he was a militant who would vigorously fight for change. Is it now okay to kill people like Martin Luther King, Tea Partiers, and Barack Obama (if he’d lived up to his campaign slogan)? Just askin.
Not sure if I have or haven’t read that. Le Guin was always a good prose-ist, it’s the rest of the “book” I found less than compelling.
I never understand this rather juvenile predilection for painting people who do not share a given “pragmatic” course of politics as children throwing a tantrum.
It insults my intelligence. It makes me even surer of my own position. Yet, each faux “election,” when we are supposed to bow down before the carcass of the Democratic Party, they haul out these tired epithets. I’ve been watching for decades, and things keep on getting worse and worse. It’s sad–but like I said–eminently predictable.
Obama did bring change – now instead of having the judiciary determine guilt, now we live in a society where if Obama kills you, it means you were guilty of whatever he accused you of…your own death is your due process with your lifeless body the proof of your guilt.
The Peace Prize Winner does not need to sing, he can act. Just as he has been for the last four years:
- bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Pakistan
- bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Afganistan
- bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Yemen
- bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iraq
I haven’t voted in 15 years. If Ron Paul is not on the ballot then my non-voting continues. I’m tired of the wars, killings, “security threats” that rape the Constitution, government-welfare for defense contractors, the boogey men “terrorists” that make us cower under our beds, CIA intervention in other countries, oh, and did I say more killings, killings, death, and destruction, all in the name of PEACE, DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM.
I seriously pray that some day another country will invade Amerika and save us from the tyranny we live under.
“Victims had to be buried in “communal graves’ because the bodies had been completely torn to pieces and were unrecognizable.”
I remember my Dad, a WWII combat veteran, bitterly recalling how the Germans bulldozed bodies into mass graves, describing those responsible as monsters.
Now I am suppose to vote for monsters. No thanks. No aiding & abetting for me.
Until…in the end we discover that he has been musing from a mental hospital… and…. he had murdered his lovely little sister he’d admired(parents, too, IIRC).
You don’t recall correctly. Nowhere in The Catcher in the Rye does it say or even allude to Holden Caufield having killed his little sister Phoebe or his parents.
Two things:
1. This “Kill List” garbage is both Obomber’s world view that he, as asylum states president, alone decides who to kill and what to destroy anywhere on the face of the Earth; with questions concerning the lawfulness of said policy on either national or international grounds being totally irrelevant
AND
2. A campaign ploy to destroy Spit Romney’s soft on terrorism and national security attack strategy that will surely be employed against him
WHY ISN’T CINDY SHEEHAN OUTSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE PROTESTING THIS MASS MURDER POLICY?????????????????
Cindy Sheehan did her bit. Why aren’t you?
I am glad it is possible to revisit this article through your site, Kevin. Yours was the first commentary I read, and it has stayed with me as the most insightful presentation of the enormity of Obama’s role. Another excellent diary was Obey’s – I tried find it so I could post a link here but didn’t come up with it. For the record, hopefully someone will post a link here.
Thank you for this, very much.
“The likelihood of people who are innocent being eliminated is amplified by the fact that it is the president, who is making the decision. His credibility, his integrity and his re-election and ability to get things done is dependent on not making a mistake and letting someone go that just might pose a threat later on down the road. Someone with that sort of emotional stake in deciding whether a suspect is executed should not be considered a fair arbiter of justice.”
This was the awful scenario that Obey’s piece brilliantly highlighted. It matters to Obama in a way that it matters to no other person that he not ‘err’ on the side of the innocent.